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I have enjoyed watching Big Love. Well most of the time. I should mention that I'm LDS. I'm also a filmmaker in LA with a couple indie movies behind my belt. I have worked in the studios and know of many LDS people who work in the studios. I personally am not offended by having a temple scene in a film, though some of my counterparts would disagree. I actually thought the temple scene itself was well done and felt even moved because it means something to me, the problem is it's placement in the show was wrong. Did the writers put the scene in or the producers? We filmmakers in LA know that we are encouraged to honestly portray a character and it's story. When it's done poorly it hurts the film because it doesn't ring true. Perhaps this is why season 3 lost some of it's ratings. I wonder if perhaps the producers of the show are allowing their personal biased to get in the way of an honest representation of the LDS? No producers in L.A. (including myself) would allow biased right?  I know of a few LDS that have worked on several films with Tom Hanks. So obviously most of the cast and crew knows a few good active LDS members. Here are my questions: Why have a character that is going to be excommunicated go to the LDS temple? If someone is excommunicated and believed the LDS had this power they would know that the endowment was not valid. Most polygamist do actually have their own temples, according to a polygamist I met. Going to the LDS temple/religion they believe doesn't hold the keys to the temple would be pointless for them. And if she was affected so much as to desire the LDS temple wouldn't she go back to being LDS leaving her husband? I find this to be a major flaw in the third season. Also, it would be refreshing to see the good in LDS members and the bad. I think that the representation of LDS in Big Love is not centered, but flawed. Though I did like the mormon bishop. Again if you were a little more honest with the LDS characters and current doctrine your story would improve. I mean even the Da Vinci Code has good Catholics, right? I was a missionary and certainly not the jerks written into Big Love. Most missionaries are what 19 years old, common? a couple of side notes: Not all mormons are equal just like other religions. We are in fact individuals. I for one am not a supporter of Prop 8. But I'm also not a supporter of banning polygamy. I'm a great grandson from polygamy, though I don't practice it. I'm a respecter of laws, even when I disagree. I figure eventually we as human beings will learn to be more tolerant and excepting of each other. Obviously the LDS Church had to drop polygamy for state hood. The government tore good (and bad) families apart scaring them from the practice. Not all LDS dislike polygamy but would never practice it without the consent of the church and government. However, others can't stand it and think it's flawed doctrine! So there is some good controversy here that I've enjoyed in watching the show. If the producers want this show to be more successful perhaps a little more honesty in characters and stories would make it so. Otherwise, I have enjoyed watching this show. I just hope you can get it right next season!
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846
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(30 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 15, 2009 3:36 PM
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I feel that Barb's visit to the temple shows her dedication to her roots so to speak as far as, let's face it; she struggles w/Bill's polygamy. She was brought up LDS etc.
With this being a tv show, it shows the viewer how she battles w/her own views of the polygamy issue & her devotion to her husband, Bill vs her family (Mother & Sis) & religious upbringing. I think it was great that HBO shows the many sides of this issue.
I'm sure Barb is not the only person who has possibly ever faced this dilemma. Sometimes you just gotta follow your heart; wherever that may lead....
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(29 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 12, 2009 9:15 PM
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Aside from anything else, strictly speaking, HE'S the polygamist - she's only married to one man.
They covered that by saying she was "living in polygamy,"of course.
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30
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(28 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 11:38 PM
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It's not about staying out of her excommunication. It's about his own visit from the bishop and a request to appear at a "love court." That wasn't portrayed. Did that happen and he ignore it? Wouldn't it be made public?
From the first episode of this past season it has been out that they are inactive. The neighbors were trying to convince Ben to go on a mission at the block party. They are meddling in their family and confused by their friendship with the daughter of Roman Grant who they are letting "rent" a house on their very own street. The neighbors are already keeping the family at a distance, not letting Tancy play with the kids (after the magazine incident that wasn't developed at ALL) or trying to reactivate them in the case of trying to get Ben back into the church putting in his mission papers.
Then there is the billboard thing that disappeared. Home plus and Us and Us and Us.
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(27 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 10:01 PM
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Good Point, Zoar.
Bill is very protective of his business dealings and his stores, which provides for his families.
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(26 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 7:59 PM
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Perhaps Bill should've been there as well, but would being excommunicated from the Church have as much meaning to Bill? No. So what would be the point in showing that?
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AlienS,
I Think I know the reason why Bill never showed up. It is all about business and his image to the public. Those 2 Home Plus stores he owns and operates probably gets a lot of business from LDS customers. They think He is one of them and Bill puts up a good front. Imagine the damage that he could suffer if it became public knowledge that a high profile LDS businessman was excommunicated for polygamy. Bill sees the writing on the wall, which is why he is expanding into the Casino business. Sooner or later he knows he is going to get caught. Bill let Barb go through an excommunication process with out him to protect his business. From what we have seen of him so far, would you put it past him?
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(25 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 12:22 PM
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Haha I see your point; sorry what I meant was its not a new immigration law suddenly invented by the current government in the UK; as some have claimed. Interestingly up until relatively recently there were laws made around the same time allowing bring a child bride into the UK provided that it could be proven that marrying at such a young age was legal and customary in the country of origin, and it didn't seem there was any lower legal limit. They have recently changed this law that spouses have to be over 18, and recently changed it yet again so that spouses have to be over 21. Instead of affecting those from countries who are seen to endorse forced and underaged marriages though; it seems the main victims of this legislation are American and Canadian citizens and some people have successfully taken the government to court and won and it looks like the age may be made 18 or even 16 again.
MarionJ, its the same in the UK if someone wants to bring someone from overseas on any type of relationship visa; even a 'partner' visa (and this includes someone from the US) they have to prove that their first marriage has been ended in a divorce (if they were indeed legally married to begin with). This is the case even if the first wife and husband living in the UK are foreign to begin with. Its stupid as the government will turn a blind eye if the couple have gone through the rather drastic step of divorcing legally. Also there is no such thing as 'no fault' divorce in the UK so it usually involves some degree of lying under oath to obtain the divorce; if divorcing for that reason.
Going back to the original topic I do agree to an extent that the LDS characters in Big Love are a bit one dimensional (and their only dimension is nasty and evil) and it is extremely odd how only Barb was hauled up in front of the excommunication hearing and not Bill, maybe that's coming in season 4? I'm not LDS but as a Muslim I have seen how virtually all Muslims in shows are portrayed as terrorists, or in the case of British soaps they are always leading a double life in one way or another (one of the family always has to be secretly gay and in fear of their life for it), and are just shown to be generally sly and two-faced.
Incidentally, that would also be an interesting sideline in Big Love if Bill got together with some polygamists of a non-mormon background....maybe Bill should look into opening a casino in Dubai; polygamy and gambling friendly....
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(24 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 1:25 AM
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This law is very old and
> dates from at least the 1960s if not before.
dasophster,
LOL, Way to make some of us feel
ancient, calling a law from the 60's "very old"! 
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(23 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 11, 2009 12:58 AM
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No, they would have had to flee the country or suffered imprisonment/fine. They couldn't just live the principal after it was made illegal in the territories.
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(22 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 10, 2009 11:05 PM
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> LFM, just a side note I am originally British and
> spend a lot of time over there, I also have a number
> of lawyer friends who specialise in family and
> marriage law and I also know Muslims over there
> living in 'polygamy'. Despite what some right-wing
> media would like to have you believe, polygamy in the
> sense of marrying more than one spouse in a civil or
> civilly registered religious ceremony, is NOT legal
> in the UK. What is true the UK like several other
> European/EU countries recognises marriages where all
> the parties married overseas in a country where
> polygamy is legal, and all parties have to come from
> a country where it is legal.
It's a very tricky legal situation in this country. I know someone who, after his first wife was in an accident that became a long-term coma, married a second wife in a country where it was legal. In order to bring her into this country and give his children a mother and himself a happy life, he had to "divorce" his first wife, with the agreement and consent of her family. Everybody knew it was polygamy, but to satisfy the courts, a divorce was required.
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(21 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 10, 2009 9:53 PM
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LFM, just a side note I am originally British and spend a lot of time over there, I also have a number of lawyer friends who specialise in family and marriage law and I also know Muslims over there living in 'polygamy'. Despite what some right-wing media would like to have you believe, polygamy in the sense of marrying more than one spouse in a civil or civilly registered religious ceremony, is NOT legal in the UK. What is true the UK like several other European/EU countries recognises marriages where all the parties married overseas in a country where polygamy is legal, and all parties have to come from a country where it is legal. A man cannot get a British woman to go overseas and then marry polygamously; this is not allowed. Its basically a concession for foreigners. Also its not true that a man can bring two wives over to the UK as his wives; he can only bring one and the other would have to come on some other type of visa. However committing legal bigamy or polygamy is more illegal in the UK than in most states of the US, bigamy is a serious crime over there; not just a misdemeanour and this law does apply to Muslims as well. And if a man from overseas who is already married, marries a woman who is considered domiciled in the UK legally; this is also not allowed as one of the conditions of them recognising foreign polygamous marriages is all parties must be from overseas and considered 'domiciled' there not in the UK. They also must have married overseas as well. This law is very old and dates from at least the 1960s if not before. The UK only allows 'polygamy' involving UK-domiciled individuals, where only one, or none of the spouses was married in a legal ceremony and the others in a religious-only ceremony as that is just considered polyamory; in the UK the most famous proponent of this lifestyle is a breakaway Messianic Jewish gentleman and his seven wives. There is no law against living with two (as seen by the state) 'girlfriends' here as they don't have specific co-habiting type laws in the UK but then again they don't in many US states either. I know of couples in the states (of several faith groups, both Christian and Muslim) who have married 'polygamously' in a similar arrangement.
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(20 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 10, 2009 7:19 PM
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> For instance, it was pointed out that both Bill and
> Barb would have been at the excommunication.
> Frankly, I doubt they would have even showed up.
> . But Barb going at it alone was completely a joke!
> A temple scene where Barb goes with her sister and
> d mother? Who gave Barb the temple recommend? It
> seems they put the temple scene into the show for the
> benefit of controversy, making money for the show.
> But I personally think it was a poorly placed
> d scene.
I don't really understand why people have such a hard time believing that Barb would show up. To me, it makes complete sense. She has never had to publicly reject and leave the LDS Church. It has always been there, something that she could return to if she felt she had to. To be excommunicated means that she no longer has that safety net.
For this reason, I think the scene was perfectly placed and important. It showed the viewers (especially those of us who are not LDS) what Barb was going through, and what she was leaving behind. I wouldn't have been able to fully understand what the excommunication meant to her if it wasn't for that scene.
As for the specifics of it, like how would she get the recommend, I don't think are that important. The point was the emotional turmoil that Barb was going through, not how she'd get into the Temple.
Perhaps Bill should've been there as well, but would being excommunicated from the Church have as much meaning to Bill? No. So what would be the point in showing that?
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(19 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 10, 2009 1:26 PM
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My great (greatgreat)grandparents on both my mothers side and fathers side were polygamous. My gggrandpa had to leave his wives and family who he loved and took care of to escape the law. He went to Mexico. When he returned he was not allowed to connect or associate with his families in anyway, in fear of jail time, changing his name. But under a different name he hired my ggrandpa and paid him well. My ggrandpa didn't know it was his father until his mother told him, due to a surprising bonus he received from his boss. His father did the best he could to take care of his children. Utah wasn't breaking the law in Utah because it wasn't a state. The U.S. put people in jail and then claimed ownership of Utah, it's buildings and assests, forcing them to join the Union or be killed and taken over.
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LFM
Small world isn?t it. My gggrandfather was also a polygamist. He was asked by Brigham Young if he would live the principle and he married two additional wives. That did not set well with his first wife and she sued him in court. The very infamous Judge Mckean presided over the case. I say infamous because during polygamous trials his mistress, a known prostitute would sit by his side in the court room. Talk about the highest level of hypocrisy in a person.
My gggrandfather was found guilty of polygamy and went to prison for six months after which the United States Supreme Court overturned the Judge?s sentence. When the persecutions intensified, he along with his remaining two wives went to Mexico. While in Mexico, my ggrandfather married a woman whose parents were also polygamists. In fact that part of my ancestral line were living polygamy since the Nauvoo period. Several Christmas ago my mother gave me as a gift, a collection of numerous biographies of her ancestors which sat on the shelves gathering dust until I became a fan of Big Love. So in a sense the show connected me to my polygamous roots. I am a descendant of the third wife. I was quite surprised to find out that my 4th great grandfather and his siblings played with Joseph Smiths children. Their parents were neighbors.
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(18 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 9, 2009 11:15 PM
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My great (greatgreat)grandparents on both my mothers side and fathers side were polygamous. My gggrandpa had to leave his wives and family who he loved and took care of to escape the law. He went to Mexico. When he returned he was not allowed to connect or associate with his families in anyway, in fear of jail time, changing his name. But under a different name he hired my ggrandpa and paid him well. My ggrandpa didn't know it was his father until his mother told him, due to a surprising bonus he received from his boss. His father did the best he could to take care of his children. Utah wasn't breaking the law in Utah because it wasn't a state. The U.S. put people in jail and then claimed ownership of Utah, it's buildings and assests, forcing them to join the Union or be killed and taken over.
Mormons went to Utah to get away from the United States. They were not welcomed and nor did they fit in to the East coast religions that considered Joseph Smith a false prophet, polygamous etc. Brigham Young made it clear that polygamy was doctrinal truth if asked by God. Now whether it was from God or just a cultural reality amongst LDS members doesn't matter. I don't care if the entire LDS membership practiced it (though many didn't) they had a right to practice it in Utah as it wasn't illegal. So the mormons made the trek to Utah and built a new city and potential self government that they hoped would allow them to live their lives the way they believed they should and could. Utah was a bargain for the U.S. The LDS came from all over the world. My ancestors arrived with Chinese, African Americans, Europeans (mostly) etc. They were some of the best builders. After living in California I can tell you that Utah is built with wide roads and on a grid that makes finding anywhere very easy. California is not near as well designed. Utah's good people and successful development wasn't because of the U.S. This was because Brigham Young and the LDS were intelligent capable people. But hey, in the end Utah complied and many wonderful people have given their lives for the good of the United States, and are true patriots.
Anyone who criticizes polygamy and claims to be Christians needs to read the Bible and do their ancestral history. They will find that they, at some point in the past, were most likely a product of polygamy. Or they might just be a product of an unfaithful spouse. Who knows? Polygamy existed way before mormonism all over the world. It is still practiced in India and other regions of the world. It is even allowed in the UK now. The truth is, just like any marriage, there are good sincere parents, and horrible parents, just like in our current society. In fact the way I look at things, polygamy is much like a divorce nowadays. Even though the parents divorce they still are responsible to the children. If they remarry they still have to put up with each other, married by responsibility. But just because polygamy is not popular now doesn't mean it is strange. We make rules and laws as a society that govern all of us. If we grew up with polygamy it would be the norm in society. We are socialized into the way a society functions. Some married men and women still cheat on each other (unfortunately). No particular religion or society has a perfect moral compass. Even mormons try to live a higher level of morality etc. but still fall short in their personal lives. However if you think about it, mormons were determined to show the government and world that they were not only going to be good people, but try to be the best citizens. This is why they live a very moral and more strict life in many ways, sometimes going overboard. Now many mormons are socialized to completely dislike polygamy and be the harshest critics. Me, well, I'm a product of it whether I like it or not, due to my great grandpa, as my great grandma was his second wife. But hey that's the past. I believe in following the laws of the land and am happily legally married to my wife.
Hollywood loves to make fun of the underdog, as they are the popular ones, and control the television and movie theaters. But I know the truth. I've been to the after parties of premiers. Hollywood is no respecter of laws when it comes to sex, drugs, marriage (not such a great track record for many of them) etc. So people get in an outrage of what the Hollywood movie is showing about the LDS, Catholics etc.. Believe me if the people knew the reality of some of these Hollywood giants lifestyles they would have to rethink things and perhaps realize that the information is coming from much biased and hypocrisy, who are laughing all the way to the bank. Now that is not always the case, but much of the time it is. Hollywood and High School share a lot of common denominators.
Now how does this apply to writing the story of Big Love? I don't know...
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Edited by lovefilmmaking at 11/09/2009 8:15 PM PST
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Edited by lovefilmmaking at 11/09/2009 8:36 PM PST
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755
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(17 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 9, 2009 9:56 PM
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> > They shouldn't have made the banning of polygamy
> to
> > include marriages that took place before the
> ban. It
> > should have been a from this moment on sort of
> thing.
> > And of course allowed for divorce for those who
> > wanted to conform at that point or moving
> forward.
>
> I'll defer to Zoar or another who is more educated in
> the history but I am pretty sure that existing
> polygamous marriages were allowed to continue
> when the LDS church started banning them.
I really am not sure about that. But it seems to me those that had already been in established polygamous marriages could have been allowed to keep their wives and children if that was a mutual desire. It would be cruel to break up marriages where emotional bonds had been formed. The thing that was sure is there were no more new marriages performed. It is not like after the manifesto was issued that polygamy came to an end the next day it was more like it was phased out. In 1904 Joseph F Smith stopped all new plural marriages and excommunication was the punishment for those who persisted. That is not to say that unauthorized plural marriages stopped. This is the period of time when the polygamous sects get their start. I guess you could picture the Manifesto like a bill passed by congress. It gets passed but it takes a while to fully implement into law.
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30
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(16 of 30)
Re: Big Love Writers off track?
Nov 9, 2009 9:38 PM
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I have to say laws applying to the territory of Utah did not consider when the marriage took place and had little to do with the control of the LDS church. It didn't even require a legal official marriage as living together was enough. Families were split apart for doing something perfectly legal, suddenly a retroactive crime.
The LDS official word to stop came upon getting statehood. But things has changed by then.
It was never a practice of most LDS. It was a way to get many of the single female converts married as more women converted and made the trek to Utah in those early days than men and since marriage is a big part of heaven they have to be paired with someone. Some were married in name only. Widows and such.
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