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This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
This seems to be the basic foundation of every issue we have on these boards, everyone has such radical view points they seem to get tangled, especially now that the ranch raid has become such a hot spot.
the point here is is there a moral high road people should be following? why? what makes it stand out form other moral codes?
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Posts:
1,355
Registered:
4/20/06
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(45 of 45)
Apr 29, 2008 1:44 PM
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> Mar,
>
> > So is a culture that cannot exist except by
> force.
> > If people want to leave, they should be able to.
> If
> > f they don't want to return, the culture has no
> value
> > in the first place.
>
> Yes, at that point it's time for the culture to
> change, and adapt enough that they can keep some
> people. A culture that has to be maintained by
> force, isn't worth much anyway.
>
> If a culture is good for people, they will chose it
> even over modern convenience. What people want most
> in their lives, are two things. Security, and
> meaning. That so many women leave FLDS suggests that
> it is offering them neither.
>
This is where the hypocrisy in this kind of thinking is so glaring. You will say that so many of them leaving proves that the culture doesn't provide these things; security and meaning, but you won't afford that so many of them staying suggests that it does. Nope. For that you want to change the premise of your logic.
Contrary to popular opinon this culture has not been maintained by fraud, abuse, coercion, or tyrany. In fact these things, however true they are, will be the undoing; the downfall of it faster than anything else could be.
The pressure from "within" has always been what brings down the empire.
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Posts:
540
Registered:
1/22/08
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(44 of 45)
Apr 29, 2008 1:35 PM
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> > You assume that our culture provides good
> influences,
> > though we produce very strong influences they
> are not
> > nessisarily what is best for everyone. You
> give
> > people too much credit. Since when is the most
> > enticing culture also the most good for you?
>
> My mistake. I wasn't paying attention, and didn't
> realize who this post came from. I'm not interested
> in having any dialog with GIP.
>
Because you cannot refute my comments, childish.
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Posts:
540
Registered:
1/22/08
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(43 of 45)
Apr 29, 2008 1:33 PM
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> You know, I don't want to offend people, but I really
> don't get this concept that everyone has to always
> have a choice about their religion. When I have
> children I will raise them in my faith. I will tell
> them it is the truth, because I believe it is the
> truth. No, I don't think people should be held
> against their will, but saying that FLDS kids have to
> be exposed to the outside world is absurd.
>
> I don't plan to expose my kids to things that I think
> are wrong and I don't see why the FLDS should have
> to. People are born into all kinds of circumstances
> and are products of their culture. Most of us are
> products of suburbia, or at least America. We didn't
> have a choice about that.
>
> *shrug*
>
> --
> She makes love just like a woman ... But she breaks
> just like a little girl.
Very well said. I agree totally. 
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Posts:
23
Registered:
6/24/07
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(42 of 45)
Apr 29, 2008 12:23 PM
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You know, I don't want to offend people, but I really don't get this concept that everyone has to always have a choice about their religion. When I have children I will raise them in my faith. I will tell them it is the truth, because I believe it is the truth. No, I don't think people should be held against their will, but saying that FLDS kids have to be exposed to the outside world is absurd.
I don't plan to expose my kids to things that I think are wrong and I don't see why the FLDS should have to. People are born into all kinds of circumstances and are products of their culture. Most of us are products of suburbia, or at least America. We didn't have a choice about that.
*shrug*
--
She makes love just like a woman ... But she breaks just like a little girl.
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Posts:
16,790
Registered:
4/21/03
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(41 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 7:50 PM
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Mar,
> So is a culture that cannot exist except by force.
> If people want to leave, they should be able to. If
> f they don't want to return, the culture has no value
> in the first place.
Yes, at that point it's time for the culture to change, and adapt enough that they can keep some people. A culture that has to be maintained by force, isn't worth much anyway.
If a culture is good for people, they will chose it even over modern convenience. What people want most in their lives, are two things. Security, and meaning. That so many women leave FLDS suggests that it is offering them neither.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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Posts:
8,101
Registered:
11/17/03
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(40 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 3:19 PM
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> You assume that our culture provides good influences,
> though we produce very strong influences they are not
> nessisarily what is best for everyone. You give
> people too much credit. Since when is the most
> enticing culture also the most good for you?
My mistake. I wasn't paying attention, and didn't realize who this post came from. I'm not interested in having any dialog with GIP.
--
----------------------------
Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com
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Posts:
252
Registered:
4/8/08
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(39 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 2:22 PM
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> By default doesn't that mean that their culture would
> eventually dismantle from all of that outside
> influence? I think it would. For instance, if flds
> was like the amish with a form of Rumspringa, I am
> sure that some would not come back. Modern
> convieniances are enticing. Or as they would say,
> "sin is enticing". Just like our great melting pot
> of America. You don't really see much left of the
> Irish, Dutch, or Swedish cultures in America. Not as
> seperate. They assimilated and merged together. And
> after the desegrigation of schools, that took care of
> the blacks, Indians (both), asians, mexicans, and
> jews. But we can look at the Amish and Indian
> reservations to see what would happen to the flds if
> they opened up to the rest of society. I dont' know
> the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that if
> there is any growth at all of those two, it is
> probebly pretty small compared to the rest of the
> country. A combination of no new people allowed to
> join and the kids they do have often leave to join
> with American culture. What kind of culture is that,
> a culture without growth is as good as dead.
I think that those born into the FLDS need to know about the "outside world" in order to make the decision to be FLDS. For me, religion is something that people need to make informed decisions about, or else you're just doing what is convenient, comfortable, and easy. I believe that every person should have the opportunity to explore their faith, ask hard questions, and really search for answers. If they decide to not return afterwards, then so be it.
But nobody should ever be forced to stay in order to prevent a culture from dying. I think it's incredibly sad when cultures die, but I also think it's incredibly sad when someone is forced to live a life that they don't want to live. If God gave them Free Will, then let them use it.
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Posts:
540
Registered:
1/22/08
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(38 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 1:51 PM
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> > By default doesn't that mean that their culture
> would
> > eventually dismantle from all of that outside
> > influence? I think it would. For instance, if
> flds
> > was like the amish with a form of Rumspringa, I
> am
> > sure that some would not come back. Modern
> > convieniances are enticing. Or as they would
> say,
> > "sin is enticing". Just like our great melting
> pot
> > of America. You don't really see much left of
> the
> > Irish, Dutch, or Swedish cultures in America.
> Not as
> > seperate. They assimilated and merged together.
> And
> > after the desegrigation of schools, that took
> care of
> > the blacks, Indians (both), asians, mexicans,
> and
> > jews. But we can look at the Amish and Indian
> > reservations to see what would happen to the
> flds if
> > they opened up to the rest of society. I dont'
> know
> > the exact numbers, but I would venture to say
> that if
> > there is any growth at all of those two, it is
> > probebly pretty small compared to the rest of
> the
> > country. A combination of no new people allowed
> to
> > join and the kids they do have often leave to
> join
> > with American culture. What kind of culture is
> that,
> > a culture without growth is as good as dead.
>
> So is a culture that cannot exist except by force.
> If people want to leave, they should be able to. If
> f they don't want to return, the culture has no value
> in the first place.
>
> --
> ----------------------------
> Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York,"
> newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
> http://www.marionsnewyork.com
You assume that our culture provides good influences, though we produce very strong influences they are not nessisarily what is best for everyone. You give people too much credit. Since when is the most enticing culture also the most good for you?
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Posts:
8,101
Registered:
11/17/03
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(37 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 1:48 PM
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> By default doesn't that mean that their culture would
> eventually dismantle from all of that outside
> influence? I think it would. For instance, if flds
> was like the amish with a form of Rumspringa, I am
> sure that some would not come back. Modern
> convieniances are enticing. Or as they would say,
> "sin is enticing". Just like our great melting pot
> of America. You don't really see much left of the
> Irish, Dutch, or Swedish cultures in America. Not as
> seperate. They assimilated and merged together. And
> after the desegrigation of schools, that took care of
> the blacks, Indians (both), asians, mexicans, and
> jews. But we can look at the Amish and Indian
> reservations to see what would happen to the flds if
> they opened up to the rest of society. I dont' know
> the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that if
> there is any growth at all of those two, it is
> probebly pretty small compared to the rest of the
> country. A combination of no new people allowed to
> join and the kids they do have often leave to join
> with American culture. What kind of culture is that,
> a culture without growth is as good as dead.
So is a culture that cannot exist except by force. If people want to leave, they should be able to. If they don't want to return, the culture has no value in the first place.
--
----------------------------
Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com
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Posts:
540
Registered:
1/22/08
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(36 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 1:41 PM
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> > I think what you mean is you hope the compounds
> will
> > all be disbanded and the occupants would
> reassimilate
> > into mainstream culture.
> >
> > I, on the other hand, would hope that the arrest
> of
> > Jeffs does not end up eventually distroying
> that
> > culture completely.
>
> Don't put words in my mouth. I meant what I said.
> That they would open their doors and allow the
> e outside world in a little, and the children growing
> up inside to know more about the outside world and
> how they live. Maybe even know something about other
> countries.
>
By default doesn't that mean that their culture would eventually dismantle from all of that outside influence? I think it would. For instance, if flds was like the amish with a form of Rumspringa, I am sure that some would not come back. Modern convieniances are enticing. Or as they would say, "sin is enticing". Just like our great melting pot of America. You don't really see much left of the Irish, Dutch, or Swedish cultures in America. Not as seperate. They assimilated and merged together. And after the desegrigation of schools, that took care of the blacks, Indians (both), asians, mexicans, and jews. But we can look at the Amish and Indian reservations to see what would happen to the flds if they opened up to the rest of society. I dont' know the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that if there is any growth at all of those two, it is probebly pretty small compared to the rest of the country. A combination of no new people allowed to join and the kids they do have often leave to join with American culture. What kind of culture is that, a culture without growth is as good as dead.
> --
> ----------------------------
> Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York,"
> newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
> http://www.marionsnewyork.com
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Posts:
8,101
Registered:
11/17/03
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(35 of 45)
Apr 28, 2008 9:13 AM
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> I think what you mean is you hope the compounds will
> all be disbanded and the occupants would reassimilate
> into mainstream culture.
>
> I, on the other hand, would hope that the arrest of
> Jeffs does not end up eventually distroying that
> culture completely.
Don't put words in my mouth. I meant what I said. That they would open their doors and allow the outside world in a little, and the children growing up inside to know more about the outside world and how they live. Maybe even know something about other countries.
--
----------------------------
Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com
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Posts:
16,790
Registered:
4/21/03
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(34 of 45)
Apr 27, 2008 2:56 AM
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gip,
> I think what you mean is you hope the compounds will
> all be disbanded and the occupants would reassimilate
> into mainstream culture.
I don't think that's what she means at all. I personally hope that the people on the compounds will come to tolerate outsiders more, and lose their bunker mentality a bit.
I wish there were a utopia I could retire to where I could bake bread and grow flowers, without having to be relegated to also being the irrelevant personal property of some old pervert.
I think it would be lovely if there were compounds where people lived in a simple, natural way without having to have sex with teenagers and treat women as livestock.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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Posts:
540
Registered:
1/22/08
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(33 of 45)
Apr 27, 2008 2:40 AM
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> > > but we have their leader in jail. we
> should
> > offer
> > > them a deal.
> >
> > I just think it would be setting up a Waco or a
> > Jonestown if we did that, but then, I've said
> that
> > before too. I just don't see what we'd gain,
> by
> > setting Warren Jeffs free to create more havoc.
>
>
> I agree. I think Warren Jeffs will make a deal he
> has no intention of following through on. He sees no
> reason to obey the law if "God" tells him otherwise.
>
> I do think keeping Jeffs in jail for a few years will
> loosen his hold on FLDS, and allow the community to
> open up.
I think what you mean is you hope the compounds will all be disbanded and the occupants would reassimilate into mainstream culture.
I, on the other hand, would hope that the arrest of Jeffs does not end up eventually distroying that culture completely.
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Posts:
16,790
Registered:
4/21/03
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(32 of 45)
Apr 26, 2008 11:32 PM
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zoar,
> There is probably a second in command at the compound
> who the people give the same allegiance. Ifthere is
> a council of 12, they would be ruling right now in
> lieu of Jeff. They in turn would visit Jeff to get
> his counsel.
It's a funny thing--you never hear of a group of 12 people unanimously agreeing that an entire compound has to die to cover their asses. You don't get a GROUP handing out poisoned Kool-Aid.
The big crazy stuff is usually a result of obedience to ONE crazy guy at the top.
As long as Jeffs is in prison, these guys on the outside will be a little more careful. If he were on the outside, the deputies and council would be irrelevant and they know it.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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Posts:
533
Registered:
6/6/06
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(31 of 45)
Apr 26, 2008 5:13 PM
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> Fen,
>
> > i don't think that the risk of a jonestown/waco
> is at
> > all reduced by having Jeffs in prison.
>
> Well, it's not entirely eliminated, but it is in fact
> reduced. If he's in prison, then there's no reason
> to be human shields for him. If he's home, and the
> authorities come for him because he violates his
> parole or commits a new crime, which you KNOW he will
> do, then there's a very strong chance he would hold
> them hostage.
>
T,
There is probably a second in command at the compound who the people give the same allegiance. Ifthere is a council of 12, they would be ruling right now in lieu of Jeff. They in turn would visit Jeff to get his counsel.
Colorado City will be pretty much on good behavior for awhile anyway.
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