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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 24, 2009 4:45 AM
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> T
>
> Came by to visit you last night but y'all weren't
> home so that's re the msg on your phone. Call me
> today if you can, hoping we can do lunch maybe
I would love to. I've been insanely busy rehearsing "Hair." You and Joe should come see it. It's a very good production, actually. It's actually rare that I make a bold statement like that re a show I'm actually in.
Thanks for not giving up on me!
--
?Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun).?
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 22, 2009 2:43 PM
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You too, Rainy!
--
"When you label something, you dismiss it."
...............Harry Dean Stanton
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 22, 2009 5:20 AM
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Marion,
hey you, nice to see your name
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 22, 2009 5:18 AM
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T
Came by to visit you last night but y'all weren't home so that's re the msg on your phone. Call me today if you can, hoping we can do lunch maybe
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 18, 2009 5:47 AM
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> > I think whenever we humans have divine visions,
> what
> > we see is more about ourselves than about the
> deity.
> > It's like when the optometrist shines a very
> bright
> > light on the eye, and suddenly you see the
> inside of
> > your own eye--NOT the light, because really
> it's
> > impossible to see the light fully and directly.
> >
> My SO uses a line to the effect of "People claim to
> be looking in a crystal ball, but they're really
> looking in a mirror."
Hence the Wiccan saying, "Know that if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you shall never find it without."
Looking in the mirror isn't always about vanity or shallowness. It's about self-knowledge and about controlling one's self.
--
?Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun).?
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 18, 2009 5:44 AM
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zoar,
> But you are have to remember that Denise never
> believed in the HM before her experience. If she had
> then I would say you might have a point. The night
> before it happened she had an argument with her
> father about HM?s existence.
So she DID have a cultural frame of reference for HM. That her father did believe in an HM explains and underscores why HM is entirely a man's creature for Denise.
> If you say that people
> see things in visions based on their belief systems
> how could Denise have the experience she described
It's very common, in my experience. People (myself included,) who are inclined to see visions, do tend to see stuff filtered through what's been said to them, what they've read, etc...REGARDLESS of their own intellectual opinions. There's a saying among rabbis--"if triangles had a God it would have three sides."
> She does mention that during her visit, the HM walked
> with her to a field and they sat together on a bench
> and had a long talk. Denise never does say what they
> talked about though. However she did learn that HF
> treats HM as an equal partner.
Utterly and completely contradicted by the fact that he "protects" her from all the things that he's supposedly worked very hard to insure that he gets from people. That's just not something you do with an equal. An equal doesn't require absolute protection at the cost of any relationships with anyone whatsoever besides their partner.
> That is in harmony with Mormon doctrine which says
> those who attain the highest celestial glory are
> ordained Kings and Queens and Priests and
> Priestesses. Which in all probability indicates the
> HM has priesthood. What the extent of her power is
> or her duties and responsibilities, has not been
> revealed. I think the purpose of Denise?s visit with
> her was just to confirm that she does have a Heavenly
> Mother.
As long as she's happy, that's all that counts really. It wouldn't work for me, but I'm glad it works for you and her.
--
?Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun).?
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 17, 2009 10:43 PM
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> I'm inclined to think that the religion she grew up
> in rendered her incapable of seeing a Goddess who
> wasn't in some sense imprisoned and controlled by the
> male deity, confined to anonymity in the kitchen and
> bedrooms of the cosmos, happy in her subjugation
> because that's how women are "supposed" to be.
>
> I think whenever we humans have divine visions, what
> we see is more about ourselves than about the deity.
>
&
T,
But you are have to remember that Denise never believed in the HM before her experience. If she had then I would say you might have a point. The night before it happened she had an argument with her father about HM?s existence. If you say that people see things in visions based on their belief systems how could Denise have the experience she described if she did not even belief in the HM? She gives a very vivid description and I was only able to touch on it because the account is so long.
She does mention that during her visit, the HM walked with her to a field and they sat together on a bench and had a long talk. Denise never does say what they talked about though. However she did learn that HF treats HM as an equal partner.
That is in harmony with Mormon doctrine which says those who attain the highest celestial glory are ordained Kings and Queens and Priests and Priestesses. Which in all probability indicates the HM has priesthood. What the extent of her power is or her duties and responsibilities, has not been revealed. I think the purpose of Denise?s visit with her was just to confirm that she does have a Heavenly Mother.
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 17, 2009 4:32 PM
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Generally, I feel that people are programmed by their cultural environment to perceive "in visions" see what is correct for them to see - hence Buddhist monks don't usually see visions of Jesus - or catholics of Buddha...
--
Cake or Death?
Um...cake.
Well - we're all out of cake- we only had three bits and we didn't expect such a rush!
-----Eddie Izzard
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 17, 2009 1:06 PM
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> I think whenever we humans have divine visions, what
> we see is more about ourselves than about the deity.
> It's like when the optometrist shines a very bright
> light on the eye, and suddenly you see the inside of
> your own eye--NOT the light, because really it's
> impossible to see the light fully and directly.
>
My SO uses a line to the effect of "People claim to be looking in a crystal ball, but they're really looking in a mirror."
I have a problem with all of this vision stuff, actually, for that reason. People only see what their belief system allows them to see. Are they really seeing anything at all.
It's like every time you see a tv show about exorcisms or houses occupied by demons, it always turns out the family are firm believers in demons. Are the demons attracted to people who believe in them, or are the people really causing the phenomena themselves (like poltergeists)?
--
"When you label something, you dismiss it."
...............Harry Dean Stanton
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 17, 2009 12:29 PM
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Hello Titannia - et al
You posted:
It's not so much that anyone doesn't believe her. I fully believe she had these visions. But I also believe that what she saw fully illustrates the complete powerlessness of the feminine in her (and your) religion.
While I find her experience interesting and compelling, you must understand that it doesn't outweigh the many personal revelations and visions of women of my own acquaintance, or of women like Caitlin Matthews, Zsusanna Budapest, Riane Eisler, etc....for me, at least.
I'm inclined to think that the religion she grew up in rendered her incapable of seeing a Goddess who wasn't in some sense imprisoned and controlled by the male deity, confined to anonymity in the kitchen and bedrooms of the cosmos, happy in her subjugation because that's how women are "supposed" to be.
I think whenever we humans have divine visions, what we see is more about ourselves than about the deity. It's like when the optometrist shines a very bright light on the eye, and suddenly you see the inside of your own eye--NOT the light, because really it's impossible to see the light fully and directly.
the story about the joke, illustrates just how deep submission goes in Denise. When a joke the men around her told, seemed offensive to women, and she tried to say so, HM was on the side of the MEN, of course. Naturally HM had no protective impulses or empathy towards women, because she's divine, and must be on the side of "right."
Since men are always right and women always wrong, HM could not be conceived of as objecting to a joke that put down women, or ever in any way siding with a woman against the men she was born to submit to. Instead she punishes Denise for presuming to say what HM would think based on the naive idea that HM is female and would identify with women, not men.
This more or less sums it up for me...
If the CJCLDS were to openly acknowledge this vision then I might respect this situartion a wee bit more ...
A
--
Cake or Death?
Um...cake.
Well - we're all out of cake- we only had three bits and we didn't expect such a rush!
-----Eddie Izzard
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 17, 2009 10:11 AM
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Alilia, Zoar,
> > Your well meaning attempt to encapsulate this
> little
> > girls dream/vision about the HM "in the
> celestial
> > kitchen" seemed to just point out how
> marginalized
> > the feminine dynamic is in the CJCLDS and in
> most
> > aspects of Westerm Monotheism.
zoar writes back:
> I am only relating her story. If you believe it, fine
> if not fine. The author herself has stated if the
> reader believes it or not whatever.
It's not so much that anyone doesn't believe her. I fully believe she had these visions. But I also believe that what she saw fully illustrates the complete powerlessness of the feminine in her (and your) religion.
While I find her experience interesting and compelling, you must understand that it doesn't outweigh the many personal revelations and visions of women of my own acquaintance, or of women like Caitlin Matthews, Zsusanna Budapest, Riane Eisler, etc....for me, at least.
I'm inclined to think that the religion she grew up in rendered her incapable of seeing a Goddess who wasn't in some sense imprisoned and controlled by the male deity, confined to anonymity in the kitchen and bedrooms of the cosmos, happy in her subjugation because that's how women are "supposed" to be.
I think whenever we humans have divine visions, what we see is more about ourselves than about the deity. It's like when the optometrist shines a very bright light on the eye, and suddenly you see the inside of your own eye--NOT the light, because really it's impossible to see the light fully and directly.
the story about the joke, illustrates just how deep submission goes in Denise. When a joke the men around her told, seemed offensive to women, and she tried to say so, HM was on the side of the MEN, of course. Naturally HM had no protective impulses or empathy towards women, because she's divine, and must be on the side of "right."
Since men are always right and women always wrong, HM could not be conceived of as objecting to a joke that put down women, or ever in any way siding with a woman against the men she was born to submit to. Instead she punishes Denise for presuming to say what HM would think based on the naive idea that HM is female and would identify with women, not men.
--
Edited by titannia at 04/17/2009 7:17 AM PDT
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 16, 2009 3:47 PM
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> Sorry Zoar
>
> Your well meaning attempt to encapsulate this little
> girls dream/vision about the HM "in the celestial
> kitchen" seemed to just point out how marginalized
> the feminine dynamic is in the CJCLDS and in most
> aspects of Westerm Monotheism.
> Are these revelations encouraged or accepted
> by the Church?
Alila,
I am only relating her story. If you believe it, fine if not fine. The author herself has stated if the reader believes it or not whatever. She has said she will not be a prophetess or anyone?s oracle chick. She is just relating her experiences because she said Christ told her to publish them to the world. As far as these things being accepted by the Church, the Church really does not know what to make of it. They have not excommunicated her and she still remains active.
One the back of the dust cover of the book is the following scripture from Joel.
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel:2:28
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 16, 2009 11:41 AM
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Sorry Zoar
Your well meaning attempt to encapsulate this little girls dream/vision about the HM "in the celestial kitchen" seemed to just point out how marginalized the feminine dynamic is in the CJCLDS and in most aspects of Westerm Monotheism.
Are these revelations encouraged or accepted by the Church?
--
Cake or Death?
Um...cake.
Well - we're all out of cake- we only had three bits and we didn't expect such a rush!
-----Eddie Izzard
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 12, 2009 7:56 PM
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> > >
> > > Here is the book summary though
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.publishinghope.com/index_files/Page1317.htm
>
> >
> >
> > That sounds interesting. I'll watch for it to
> come
> > out again. It is very difficult to find any info
> for
> > that book on Google!
> >
>
> Pearl2U,
>
> Here are the search words to use in google: Denise
> Mendenhall
Thanks, that works much better!
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Re: Are you a Mormon (any variation) watcher of Big Love?
Apr 12, 2009 6:58 PM
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> >
> > Here is the book summary though
> >
> >
> http://www.publishinghope.com/index_files/Page1317.htm
>
>
> That sounds interesting. I'll watch for it to come
> out again. It is very difficult to find any info for
> that book on Google!
>
Pearl2U,
Here are the search words to use in google: Denise Mendenhall
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