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This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
I don't know if anyone has posted this link yet, but there's a pretty interesting blog by a reporter out of Salt Lake (who is Catholic, if anyone cares, not LDS, which is what I in my ignorance would have suspected) who writes about issues of polygamy. When my boss went away I spend about a full day reading it all the way back from the first entry (which started with the opening of Big Love). It's either pretty balanced or horribly skewed depending on your own ethical framework, but regardless of where you stand, it's thought-provoking. I am pretty sure I've seen some comments written by some of our regulars (but I won't name names). Heres' the web address: http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/ Enjoy (or don't -- it's your choice). -- You know me... I have a naturally cheerful countenance.
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(72 of 72)
May 31, 2008 8:43 AM
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> There's a wonderful book called "The Godmother," by
> Elizabeth Scarborough, about a social worker who
> becomes a fairy godmother.
Ooh, ooh...An Elizabeth Scarborough book I haven't read. Off to the Library website to put it on hold...
Damn. They don't have it. How can the New York Public Library be missing an ES book??
Edit: I ordered it from Amazon - a used copy for the cost of shipping. There are more - she wrote two more! I'm so excited! I love Elizabeth Scarborough!! Thanks for this, T!
--
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. - Goethe
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Edited by Marionj2 at 05/31/2008 5:50 AM PDT
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(71 of 72)
May 31, 2008 8:32 AM
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> withay and T
> I could understand her not helping move things if
> f she were unable too. It wasn't mentioned.
That's the point I was making about not knowing both sides of the story. Fen may not have known her reasons. Or, as we all know from his behavior here, she may have told him, and he ignored her, in fact, forgot she ever said it.
I can see a situation where the caseworker showed up, tried to do her job of removing the girl, and Fen ignored what she wanted to do, insisted on doing it his way, loading up the car, etc., and then rubbed salt in the wound by expecting her to help him.
This may simply have been a matter of butting heads, compounded by the fact that the caseworker was a woman, and Fen is a big guy, who "took over," with an element of physical intimidation he is probably completely unaware of. Understandably, she would have resented it. From her point of view, Fen wasn't even the foster parent - he was an "outsider" who tried to take over her authority in the case.
In a perfect world, people don't get bent out of shape when something like this happens - they put the welfare of the child first. But the world isn't perfect, and people's egos get in the way.
Most likely, I think, is a combination of the liability issues T mentioned, her concern that the situation would turn ugly if the foster parents returned while they were still there, because the whole process had taken much longer than it should have, and the "who died and made you boss?" question.
Somebody like Fen probably doesn't think in these terms. He's 6'4" and a karate expert - he's probably unaware of how most women feel about the potential of a situation turning physical.
--
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. - Goethe
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(70 of 72)
May 31, 2008 7:49 AM
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> withay and T
> I could understand her not helping move things if
> f she were unable too. It wasn't mentioned.
Yes, I know. But whenever someone describes a person behaving in a completely unreasonable way, my first impulse is always to point out a list of possible reasons why a person might behave that way.
Usually whomever I'm talking with says, "no, that's not it," whether they know so or not.
> Even though I don't think it's a
> profession that's supposed to be enjoyed, I just
> don't understand why someone would take a job like
> that if they have no interest in helping these
> children instead of just going through the motions.
I think initially everyone wants to help, or they wouldn't be there. But after awhile you just get sick of people.
I'm pretty sure there's more to the story, because it makes very little sense as is. And when something doesn't make sense, it's not true. Either info's missing, or there's added false information.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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(69 of 72)
May 31, 2008 5:16 AM
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withay and T
I could understand her not helping move things if she were unable too. It wasn't mentioned.
I do not feel the same way about CPS as some of the others on this board do. It's emotionally draining work with crappy pay, and takes a special person to do the job right. Even though I don't think it's a profession that's supposed to be enjoyed, I just don't understand why someone would take a job like that if they have no interest in helping these children instead of just going through the motions.
--
"Knit your own sweater, Boss Lady!" -Margene
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(68 of 72)
May 31, 2008 3:35 AM
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> > T, gotta disagree with you here. This woman
> sounded
> > like a piss-poor excuse for a social worker.
> It's a
> > damn shame when there are so many of them who
> will
> > put their lives, and jobs on the line to help
> > children.
>
> Halo, From Fen's description, she does sound awful.
> But to be fair, we only have his version of the
> situation from his point of view. There may have been
> things going on that he did not know about. I have a
> disability which is sometimes called an "invisible
> disability". I know people see me letting my mother
> lift things for me and I see from their expression
> that they think I am awful for letting someone
> obviously older than me pick things up. What they
> don't know is that because of spinal cord damage and
> brain surgery, I am limited to lifting 10 pounds.
> No exceptions.
We often don't have enough info about other people to make the judgments we do. The caseworker sounds awful, yes. BUT.
If she'd just had surgery, for instance, an abortion, then she wouldn't be allowed to lift anything over 10 lbs either, and also she might look irritated, distracted, etc...
When I said family, Halo, I meant the new foster parents--Fen's Mom, in this case. Fen would be considered part of that family.
> We just don't have enough information to make
> to make a judgement on the caseworker's behavior.
We really don't. She could have had a lot of reasons for the behavior Fen describes. Or not. We don't know. I tend to think everyone makes sense in their own frame of reference.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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(67 of 72)
May 31, 2008 1:30 AM
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> T, gotta disagree with you here. This woman sounded
> like a piss-poor excuse for a social worker. It's a
> damn shame when there are so many of them who will
> put their lives, and jobs on the line to help
> children.
Halo, From Fen's description, she does sound awful. But to be fair, we only have his version of the situation from his point of view. There may have been things going on that he did not know about. I have a disability which is sometimes called an "invisible disability". I know people see me letting my mother lift things for me and I see from their expression that they think I am awful for letting someone obviously older than me pick things up. What they don't know is that because of spinal cord damage and brain surgery, I am limited to lifting 10 pounds. No exceptions.
We just don't have enough information to make a judgement on the caseworker's behavior.
--
Well-behaved women rarely make history.......... Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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(66 of 72)
May 31, 2008 1:17 AM
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> > Exactly. And the problem is that next week or
> next
> > month, some worker will remember what happened
> in
> > Texas and will wait a little longer to take a
> child
> > into custody. And that little bit longer may
> cause
> > that child, at best to be injured, and at worst,
> to
> > lose their life. Then the media and the critics
> (who
> > know exactly how the job should be done though
> they
> > would never dream of doing it) will drag out
> their
> > soapboxes to say that CPS is responsible for
> not
> > acting quicker.
>
> I can definitely see that happening. It's really
> unfortunate how this whole thing has played out, and
> I'm sure the repercussions will be felt for a while.
I've seen it happen over and over. Either you are acting too quickly without enough proof or you waited too long trying to get enough proof. Either you are snatching the children of innocent parents or you are leaving children with obvious monsters. The thousands of cases where the timing is just right are forgotten. And because of those privacy and confidentiality laws that CPS supposedly loves, if there are reasons and explanations, CPS cannot share that information with the public.
--
Well-behaved women rarely make history.......... Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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115
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(65 of 72)
May 31, 2008 12:34 AM
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T, gotta disagree with you here. This woman sounded like a piss-poor excuse for a social worker. It's a damn shame when there are so many of them who will put their lives, and jobs on the line to help children.
>
> The mothers were traumatized, but I didn't see a
> single picture that looked like the children were.
> They weren't crying, they weren't scared. They were
> e laughing and waving and seemed in good spirits on
> the playgrounds and even on the bus.
>
> One advantage to having a lot of interchangeable
> adult caregivers is that eventually you just don't
> care that much who's there, since they're all pretty
> much the same.
>
> > like laziness. and apathy. and coldness. and
> > callousness. and indifference.
>
> You seem to just hate these people for no reason.
>
> > a teen fosterchild had to get out of where she
> was
> > living fast because she was being abused. so i
> met
> > the girl's caseworker and we went over and i and
> the
> > girl moved her stuff into the back of my truck.
> the
> > caseworker was there sort of to supervise, but
> also
> > to act to protect the girl should her abusive
> > fostermother come back on the scene.
>
> She was there to get the girl OUT. Not the girl's
> stuff, the girl. ASAP.
>
> > well, there were a few things that wouldn't fit,
> and
> > i asked the caseworker if we could put them into
> the
> > back of her hatch back. she was supposed to
> ride
> > over with us to make sure that the girl got
> settled
> > into my mother's.
> >
> > no, she wouldn't let us put anything in her car.
> not
> > one object.
>
> There is a VERY good reason for that, Fen. If she
> said yes, she'd be responsible for the girls' stuff,
> and if something got lost she'd be accused of keeping
> it. Also if the kid had pot or drugs hidden in her
> stuff, which does happen, the caseworker would be in
> more trouble than she could ever get out of.
How else would things get moved from one home to another? I doubt that any agency would shell out money for a uhaul or movers. And nobody is going to believe the word of a "screwed up" teenager over the word of a social worker. I have been there.
>
> She had to worry about stuff normal people don't even
> think about, Fen, stuff that goes with her job.
>
> > the entire time she stood around and didn't lift
> a
> > hand to help us.
>
> Because she's a CASEWORKER, NOT a mover, and she's
> not insured in case she drops and breaks someone's
> stuff, nor is she paid enough to lift heavy objects
> in addition to the other stuff she has to do.
Of course she's not a mover. But I know I'd feel bad if I sat around while a traumatized teenaged girl acted as a pack mule when I was perfectly capable of helping her. And alot of people don't get paid enough for the jobs that we do, but we do them anyway, and other things that aren't required of us.
>
> > the whole time she acted impatient and
> irritated.
>
> Of course! Because she had other cases. She was
> there to get the girl and take her where she was
> going, FAST, before the foster-mom showed up. And
> then probably had a bunch of other cases waiting for
> her that afternoon at the office. She wasn't the
> moving committee--that's up to the family.
What "family?" It sounds as if the girl didn't have one. And one case has nothing to do with the other, so she shouldn't be taking her heavy caseload out on a teenaged girl. The girl did not ask to be put in this position, but the social worker did.
>
> > and what's more, she knew that i was doing this
> as a
> > favor to my mother, for a girl that i didn't
> know,
> > knowing that i had to be at work and had to move
> my
> > girlfriend's stuff.
>
> She was probably irritated that you were there at
> all. You were helping move the stuff, but your
> presence slowed down her job, which was to just get
> the girl out of there. If the new foster Mom wanted
> to have her son help move the girl, cool, but she
> probably felt like you could have done all that AFTER
> she'd gotten the girl out.
The foster parents would have probably thrown the girls things in the trash, or kept them.
>
> > the case worker was supposed to drive the girl
> over,
> > too, she wasn't supposed to ride in my truck,
> but
> > then when we were ready to go the caseworker
> was
> > irritated that the girl was gonna ride in her
> car.
>
> Okay, now that's gotten into weird territory that
> maybe shoudl have gotten her fired... and I have no
> sympathy for that, but up until this part you were
> judging this woman for just trying to stick to the
> rules.
>
> > and i remember caseworkers calling my mom to
> take in
> > a teenage boy who had repeatedly molested and
> > otherwise abused his own brother, a boy my
> mother
> > already had in her care along with other small
> boys
> > his age. oh, we want to reunite the
> family!
>
> And this surprises you why? The big thing at that
> time was reuniting families, abuse or not.
>
> > but they all talked like they were true and
> zealous
> > believers in putting the children first, that
> they'd
> > do anything, walk through fire, to protect a
> child.
>
> Well, it's like any other job. Some people are good
> at it, some are so-so. Nobody's wonderful all the
> time. And probably the ones who are the most
> inspired have the most trouble abiding by the
> procedures and get themselves fired fast.
>
> Meanwhile the ones who refuse to put someone's stuff
> in their car, or interfere past what they've been
> asked to, hang onto their jobs for life. It's just
> how it works.
>
> > you see enough suffering and a lot of people
> become
> > uncaring.
>
> Sure, because caring gets you nowhere, and it doesn't
> even always help the kids either.
>
> There's a wonderful book called "The Godmother," by
> Elizabeth Scarborough, about a social worker who
> becomes a fairy godmother. Some of her coworkers are
> like who you're talking about.
>
> > you see someone that may be at risk and
> > you want to do something. but in the end, all
> we
> > have is are the proper procedures. did they
> follow
> > them? it seems that the Texas courts have found
> that
> > they did not. and if they were not followed,
> people
> > who didn't follow them should be fired.
>
> Yeah, and I'm sure they will be. But you talk like
> you just want the whole place burned to the
> ground--like the job itself is for incompetents by
> definition.
>
> --
> "And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest
> one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star
> hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the
> guillotine."
>
> --
> Edited by titannia at 05/30/2008 8:14 PM PDT
--
"Knit your own sweater, Boss Lady!" -Margene
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Posts:
16,790
Registered:
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(64 of 72)
May 30, 2008 11:09 PM
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> > you see enough suffering and a lot of people
> become
> > uncaring. you see someone that may be at risk
> and
> > you want to do something. but in the end, all
> we
> > have is are the proper procedures.
>
> It sounds to me as if the caseworker may have been
> told she should not step outside her role of
> supervising and protection, that she should not be a
> taxidriver or a moving truck. In other words, she
> may have been following procedures, doing her job and
> not getting personally involved.
I think every social worker at one time or another has had their head bitten off for trying to do something that would expose CPS to liability, or for trying to do too much.
Some guy on his own time can do whatever he wants, but the caseworker really does have to color inside the lines--no thinking outside the box allowed.
> She also probably had a long list of places to go and
> people to see - hence "impatient and irritated,"
Yes, for every minute she's there at that house, someone's call isn't getting answered.
Probably she figured Fen had taken over so far, he could do the rest of it.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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Posts:
16,790
Registered:
4/21/03
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(63 of 72)
May 30, 2008 11:04 PM
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Fen,
The mothers were traumatized, but I didn't see a single picture that looked like the children were. They weren't crying, they weren't scared. They were laughing and waving and seemed in good spirits on the playgrounds and even on the bus.
One advantage to having a lot of interchangeable adult caregivers is that eventually you just don't care that much who's there, since they're all pretty much the same.
> like laziness. and apathy. and coldness. and
> callousness. and indifference.
You seem to just hate these people for no reason.
> a teen fosterchild had to get out of where she was
> living fast because she was being abused. so i met
> the girl's caseworker and we went over and i and the
> girl moved her stuff into the back of my truck. the
> caseworker was there sort of to supervise, but also
> to act to protect the girl should her abusive
> fostermother come back on the scene.
She was there to get the girl OUT. Not the girl's stuff, the girl. ASAP.
> well, there were a few things that wouldn't fit, and
> i asked the caseworker if we could put them into the
> back of her hatch back. she was supposed to ride
> over with us to make sure that the girl got settled
> into my mother's.
>
> no, she wouldn't let us put anything in her car. not
> one object.
There is a VERY good reason for that, Fen. If she said yes, she'd be responsible for the girls' stuff, and if something got lost she'd be accused of keeping it. Also if the kid had pot or drugs hidden in her stuff, which does happen, the caseworker would be in more trouble than she could ever get out of.
She had to worry about stuff normal people don't even think about, Fen, stuff that goes with her job.
> the entire time she stood around and didn't lift a
> hand to help us.
Because she's a CASEWORKER, NOT a mover, and she's not insured in case she drops and breaks someone's stuff, nor is she paid enough to lift heavy objects in addition to the other stuff she has to do.
> the whole time she acted impatient and irritated.
Of course! Because she had other cases. She was there to get the girl and take her where she was going, FAST, before the foster-mom showed up. And then probably had a bunch of other cases waiting for her that afternoon at the office. She wasn't the moving committee--that's up to the family.
> and what's more, she knew that i was doing this as a
> favor to my mother, for a girl that i didn't know,
> knowing that i had to be at work and had to move my
> girlfriend's stuff.
She was probably irritated that you were there at all. You were helping move the stuff, but your presence slowed down her job, which was to just get the girl out of there. If the new foster Mom wanted to have her son help move the girl, cool, but she probably felt like you could have done all that AFTER she'd gotten the girl out.
> the case worker was supposed to drive the girl over,
> too, she wasn't supposed to ride in my truck, but
> then when we were ready to go the caseworker was
> irritated that the girl was gonna ride in her car.
Okay, now that's gotten into weird territory that maybe shoudl have gotten her fired... and I have no sympathy for that, but up until this part you were judging this woman for just trying to stick to the rules.
> and i remember caseworkers calling my mom to take in
> a teenage boy who had repeatedly molested and
> otherwise abused his own brother, a boy my mother
> already had in her care along with other small boys
> his age. oh, we want to reunite the family!
And this surprises you why? The big thing at that time was reuniting families, abuse or not.
> but they all talked like they were true and zealous
> believers in putting the children first, that they'd
> do anything, walk through fire, to protect a child.
Well, it's like any other job. Some people are good at it, some are so-so. Nobody's wonderful all the time. And probably the ones who are the most inspired have the most trouble abiding by the procedures and get themselves fired fast.
Meanwhile the ones who refuse to put someone's stuff in their car, or interfere past what they've been asked to, hang onto their jobs for life. It's just how it works.
> you see enough suffering and a lot of people become
> uncaring.
Sure, because caring gets you nowhere, and it doesn't even always help the kids either.
There's a wonderful book called "The Godmother," by Elizabeth Scarborough, about a social worker who becomes a fairy godmother. Some of her coworkers are like who you're talking about.
> you see someone that may be at risk and
> you want to do something. but in the end, all we
> have is are the proper procedures. did they follow
> them? it seems that the Texas courts have found that
> they did not. and if they were not followed, people
> who didn't follow them should be fired.
Yeah, and I'm sure they will be. But you talk like you just want the whole place burned to the ground--like the job itself is for incompetents by definition.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
--
Edited by titannia at 05/30/2008 8:14 PM PDT
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Posts:
252
Registered:
4/8/08
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(62 of 72)
May 30, 2008 10:36 PM
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> Excellent point, AS. Unfortunately, what you just
> said is something that has been said repeatedly to
> Fen and he refuses to accept it. In his view, if you
> do not agree with him it is because you do not
> understand him. Explaining the difference is futile.
He can repeat himself all he wants, but as my mom would say, the only thing that'll accomplish is annoying me.
> Exactly. And the problem is that next week or next
> month, some worker will remember what happened in
> Texas and will wait a little longer to take a child
> into custody. And that little bit longer may cause
> that child, at best to be injured, and at worst, to
> lose their life. Then the media and the critics (who
> know exactly how the job should be done though they
> would never dream of doing it) will drag out their
> soapboxes to say that CPS is responsible for not
> acting quicker.
I can definitely see that happening. It's really unfortunate how this whole thing has played out, and I'm sure the repercussions will be felt for a while.
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Posts:
8,101
Registered:
11/17/03
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(61 of 72)
May 30, 2008 10:22 PM
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> you see enough suffering and a lot of people become
> uncaring. you see someone that may be at risk and
> you want to do something. but in the end, all we
> have is are the proper procedures.
It sounds to me as if the caseworker may have been told she should not step outside her role of supervising and protection, that she should not be a taxidriver or a moving truck. In other words, she may have been following procedures, doing her job and not getting personally involved.
She also probably had a long list of places to go and people to see - hence "impatient and irritated," perhaps because instead of getting the girl safely out of there, you were moving a whole bunch of her belongings. And having taken over the whole move and, from her point of view, delaying her ability to do her job, THEN you wanted her to be a taxi driver?
I don't know that any of this is the case, I'm just saying that there are always at least two viewpoints, and you are only telling one of them.
--
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. - Goethe
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Posts:
1,549
Registered:
4/17/06
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(60 of 72)
May 30, 2008 9:58 PM
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Fen,
First, your story has nothing to do with what happened in Texas. From your description, that worker would not have removed the Texas children if Jeffs had been consumating a childbride marriage in front of her.
And you basing your opinion of CPS workers on her is about as fair as my basing my opinion of men from Boston on my interactions with you on this board.
--
Well-behaved women rarely make history.......... Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Posts:
1,549
Registered:
4/17/06
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(59 of 72)
May 30, 2008 9:49 PM
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> Fen, I think we're going to have to disagree on
> whether firing someone in this specific case would be
> a punishment or not. I don't agree with you, you
> don't agree with me, and I don't see this changing
> anytime soon.
Excellent point, AS. Unfortunately, what you just said is something that has been said repeatedly to Fen and he refuses to accept it. In his view, if you do not agree with him it is because you do not understand him. Explaining the difference is futile.
> The difference in this case from someone who
> physically or mentally cannot do their job is that
> we're talking about people who can do their job, and
> we're just not happy with how they did it. Big
> difference, and not even comparable in my opinion.
>
> --
> Edited by AlienSummer at 05/30/2008 12:56 PM PDT
Exactly. And the problem is that next week or next month, some worker will remember what happened in Texas and will wait a little longer to take a child into custody. And that little bit longer may cause that child, at best to be injured, and at worst, to lose their life. Then the media and the critics (who know exactly how the job should be done though they would never dream of doing it) will drag out their soapboxes to say that CPS is responsible for not acting quicker.
--
Well-behaved women rarely make history.......... Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Posts:
8,101
Registered:
11/17/03
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(58 of 72)
May 30, 2008 8:07 PM
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T, good point. Even if they wanted to, the women have been trained never to make a decision for themselves, it seems.
--
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. - Goethe
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