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It's war. The war of the bible verses. Who has them for and against polygamy. Lets finally figure out what side is right.
Just the old and new testament. No Quran or Morman books.
Have fun.
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(31 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
May 29, 2008 5:01 PM
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As far as I know, the OT has plenty of examples of polygamists such as Moses,David- 5 wives I think and Solomon with 700 wives and 300 concubines.The Nt is pretty silent on the subject.By the time Christ was on Earth polygamy was virtually non-existant, at least in Israel.One of Paul's epistles 1 Timothy 3:2 discusses the credentials for an overseeer or an elder/deacon and that this person needs to be "The husband of one wife".. Titus 1:6 echoes this statement saying "An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient". The verse are from the New international version of the bible.Apparently if a man isn't wanting to be an elder or deacon then being a polygamist is OK.Perhaps Paul took a dim view of polygamy and associated it with pagan practices or a form of adultery.I really cannot find nothing overtly prohibiting or condoning polygamy.Perhaps the office of elder or deacon is meant to be for a person that is non-controversial in their conduct as to be an example to others as well as church leader.These views are just mine and not trying to preach or lecture anyone.(Women are supposed to be silent in the church.)
"Your'e not always the first to know everything Barb"
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(30 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 28, 2008 7:54 AM
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lisoccermom,
> Now, unfortunately, and this is what gets me on the
> outside of the church, there is speculation/rumor
> that Jesus wasn't celibite at all but was "married"
> to Mary Magdelene, a former sinner!
Now you come to my own beliefs. Catholicism is very clear, very simple, and very consistent, IMO.
However, I'm not Catholic.
Rabbis had to be married, preferably by age 12. And they were supposed to have ONE wife only. I recognize that custom. I also recognize the Jewish custom that a woman only touches the Torah when sitting at the feet of her husband or father. Or brother, if her father is dead.
Mary of Bethany holds her own in a rabbinical debate at her sister Martha's house. I always thought that was a weird story--remember Mary & Martha? Martha comes in to ask Jesus to make Mary go into the kitchen NOW and help the women, not sit there debating scripture with the men.
Jesus says, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things. Leave Mary alone, she has chosen the better part."
Mary is sitting at Jesus' feet. Which is he, her father, her brother, or her husband? And in what way did Mary choose "the better part" that Martha can't choose? You'd think Jesus would say "come on in and join us." And how did Lazarus become Jesus' brother-in-law, unless he's either married to Jesus' sister, or Jesus is married to his? Since Mary's Lazarus' sister, it stands to reason that SHE IS JESUS' WIFE.
Once you're pagan you can't ignore the pagan rituals Jesus performs, either, btw. I can't help wondering what some little rabbi's doing riding that donkey into Jerusalem. That was a ritual in which a priest, possessed by Osiris/Dionysis/Adonis/Tammuz/Dumuzi/Mediterranean God of your choice....would ride a donkey. He would approach the holy altar neither walking nor riding, (riding with one foot on the ground,) neither fasting nor feasting, (eating an onion or chewing herbs,) neither dressed nor undressed, (wearing night-clothes,) neither with nor without a gift. (the donkey is a gift.)
the crowd is ALWAYS supposed to respond by covering him with leaves until he's completely concealed, or spring won't come. Hosannah!
Being Pagan or Jewish, you read about Jesus and go, "oh, he's one of us....what's going on here?"
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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(29 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 27, 2008 8:54 PM
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>
> Now, unfortunately, and this is what gets me on the
> outside of the church, there is speculation/rumor
> that Jesus wasn't celibite at all but was "married"
> to Mary Magdelene, a former sinner! To me personally
> (not as a Catholic) the mere speculation on this
> matter and some other spots in the written history of
> that time, lead me to believe that what we know from
> the old and new testaments is all just written
> interpretation of the times. Consequently you will
> rarely see me quote the bible. No mere mortal gets to
> be the be end and end all for me..lol another problem
> I have with the Church..the Pope as dictator.
> So, whether or not that is so doesn't matter to me, I
> still respect Jesus for his basic tenants.
> All that said, yes,celibacy is considered to be more
> Christlike, therefore preferable except of course for
> the folks that are propagating.
>
I've always sort of had a problem with people making volumns of exigeses out of what the Bible doesn't say. lol
It's one thing to be able to read between the lines a bit and get your own personal epiphany, and quite another to write (pen) volumes of "commandments" from it and go about converting the rest of humanity. (at the point of the sword)
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(28 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 27, 2008 4:39 PM
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LISO, just because Tom Hanks is involved in Big Love does not mean you have to belive in the Divinci Code. lol
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(27 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 26, 2008 11:32 PM
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> JH,
>
> > > A totally unwarranted assumption. Are all
> > Catholics
> > > taught to aspire to live a life of
> celibacy?
>
> This isn't a good argument, because
>
> 1) the "blameless life" which included monogamy was
> encouraged for the laity, not just the clergy.
>
> 2) although only priests and nuns are required to be
> celibate in Catholicism, the mere presence of a
> celibate priesthood is there to say celibacy is
> better, purer, more Christlike, than marriage and
> family.
>
> The church blesses marriage and family, because
> that's where more Catholics come from. But there's
> no question of which is superior. Celibacy is. The
> Catholic church teaches that Jesus was celibate, Mary
> was a virgin, and that celibacy is the best
> path--marriage and family is the consolation prize
> for those not quite holy enough to get the calling.
>
Yay T! this is your cheering section talking..you got all of that right on the money!
Now, unfortunately, and this is what gets me on the outside of the church, there is speculation/rumor that Jesus wasn't celibite at all but was "married" to Mary Magdelene, a former sinner! To me personally (not as a Catholic) the mere speculation on this matter and some other spots in the written history of that time, lead me to believe that what we know from the old and new testaments is all just written interpretation of the times. Consequently you will rarely see me quote the bible. No mere mortal gets to be the be end and end all for me..lol another problem I have with the Church..the Pope as dictator.
So, whether or not that is so doesn't matter to me, I still respect Jesus for his basic tenants.
All that said, yes,celibacy is considered to be more Christlike, therefore preferable except of course for the folks that are propagating.
--
"I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." ~ Voltaire
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(26 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:13 PM
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> > > Requiring rabbis and deacons only to have
> one
> > > wife shows that the PREFERRED marital
> custom
> > > was monogamy.
> >
> > That's an assumption that many make, but it's
> not
> > thorough.
> >
> > It could very well be that this priestly class
> of
> > person would be expected to be too busy to be
> > pursuing goals of plural marriage.
>
> Except that Titus stipulates a class of person for
> monogamy who is not a member of the priesthood.
> "Elders" were non-clergy administrators and
> d bureaucrats, not priests, deacons, or bishops. 1
> Timothy stipulates that a blameless life can
> only be led with one wife, which is irrelevant
> of the office as everyone was encouraged to
> lead a blameless life.
>
> Besides, look at the rest of the standard: in 1
> Timothy we are told that a blameless life includes
> additional stuff beyond monogamy: "vigilant, sober,
> of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to
> teach; ruling their children and their own houses
> well." If "husband to one wife" is something which
> only applies to the priesthood, then clearly all the
> other stuff applies only to the priesthood, and the
> "faithful" can be drunkards, apathetic, given to bad
> behavior, never providing hospitality, refusing to
> teach others, allowing their children to run amok,
> and allowing their houses to fall into disrepair.
> I'm fairly certain that half a dozen commandments
> s are broken if all of that is allowed to the
> "faithful" and only required of the priesthood.
>
> 1 Corinthians 7:2 stipulates that a woman should have
> a husband of her own, an impossibility in a
> polygynous marriage. If you consider that everyone
> in a polygamous marriage is "married to each other"
> then it is also impossible for the husband to have "a
> wife of his own" because she is married to other
> women in the polygamous marriage.
>
> Finally, as the primary stated reason for plural
> marriage is procreation, and procreation cannot be
> separated from sex, then you cannot consider a new
> candidate to become your additional wife without
> thinking about sex with her, also known as "lust".
I don't agree. I think that man has it in him to think about sex without lust, but in more of a clinical sense. You know gynocologists are not always thinking about sex when looking at hundreds of beef curtians. lol.
> Matthew 5:27-28 stipulates that you commit adultery
> y with a woman just by looking at her with lust in
> your heart. Thus if you are married, you will cheat
> on your wife simply by looking for a second wife,
> making the act of looking for your next wife into a
> sexual sin.
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(25 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:57 AM
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> EV,
>
> I'll grant you that 1 Timothy 3:12, the way it is
> worded, appears to promote polyandry (i.e., all of
> them married to one woman), but all of them condemn
> at least polygyny, if not polygamy.
>
> it doesn't "condemn" polygyny, it merely disqualifies
> polygynists from two church offices. if Paul had
> wanted to condemn polygyny in general, he could have
> have said something like "make sure that all bishops
> and deacons are free from the abomination of having
> more than one wife."
A good argument, IMO.
Here's reference to some other ones concerning these verses in question:
"Titus 1:6 and 1_Timothy 3:2,12 --- "One wife" --- mia is the Greek word (for the word, one, in those passages) may also be translated as first, as it is, for example so translated in the phrases, "first day of the week" in Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-2, and Acts 20:7. Furthermore, in 1_Timothy 5:9, a widow's "one man" is not mia but the Greek word "heis", meaning the numeral-one, and not meaning the adjective of "first". (There is so much more to this particular matter here than that which this "sound-bite" here can address, but is addressed throughout various places throughout this web-site. The fact is, no one can INSIST that these three "one wife" verses can NOT be instead translated as "first wife", which makes more sense to translate those verses as "first wife" anyway.)"
http://www.truthbearer.org/read-first/exegesis/
--
"Behave yourself poppa, we're not on the compound." My Nicki 
"i know, i know, i disrupt your pleasing echo chamber effect." The Fen-man
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(24 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:51 AM
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> JH,
>
> > > A totally unwarranted assumption. Are all
> > Catholics
> > > taught to aspire to live a life of
> celibacy?
>
> This isn't a good argument, because
T, I didn't just meet you here yesterday.
Any argument that oppses your opinion is a bad argument for that reason alone.
It's in the hands of the jury T, I will not debate you or your amen chorus concerning the validity of my arguments.
--
"Behave yourself poppa, we're not on the compound." My Nicki
"i know, i know, i disrupt your pleasing echo chamber effect." The Fen-man
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(23 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:36 AM
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EV,
I'll grant you that 1 Timothy 3:12, the way it is worded, appears to promote polyandry (i.e., all of them married to one woman), but all of them condemn at least polygyny, if not polygamy.
it doesn't "condemn" polygyny, it merely disqualifies polygynists from two church offices. if Paul had wanted to condemn polygyny in general, he could have have said something like "make sure that all bishops and deacons are free from the abomination of having more than one wife."
and the Catholic Church has no "explaining to do," let alone a lot of it, when it comes to their celibate priesthood. the Church has always admitted that it's celibate priesthood was an innovation, one justified from the benefits gained from it.
you seem addicted to the idea that the Bible should be the ultimate guide, even the only guide, for Jews and Christians, and you seem to extend that idea to Muslims and the Koran. but that was simply not the case with Jews, Christians or Muslims.
you?re a smart guy, EV, a much better webresearcher than i am. look into it, try to understand about the authoritative relationship that the rabbinate and the Ulema plays in Judaism and Islam and that the church, as an institution of divines, does so in Christian faiths. try to develop an understanding how tradition --- long established practice --- in and of itself is also be authoritative for nearly all faith communities.
--
Edited by Fenrir at 03/22/2008 6:37 AM PDT
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(22 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:22 AM
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JH,
> > A totally unwarranted assumption. Are all
> Catholics
> > taught to aspire to live a life of celibacy?
This isn't a good argument, because
1) the "blameless life" which included monogamy was encouraged for the laity, not just the clergy.
2) although only priests and nuns are required to be celibate in Catholicism, the mere presence of a celibate priesthood is there to say celibacy is better, purer, more Christlike, than marriage and family.
The church blesses marriage and family, because that's where more Catholics come from. But there's no question of which is superior. Celibacy is. The Catholic church teaches that Jesus was celibate, Mary was a virgin, and that celibacy is the best path--marriage and family is the consolation prize for those not quite holy enough to get the calling.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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(21 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 9:17 AM
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EV, JH,
> Except that Titus stipulates a class of person for
> monogamy who is not a member of the priesthood.
> "Elders" were non-clergy administrators and
> d bureaucrats, not priests, deacons, or bishops. 1
> Timothy stipulates that a blameless life can
> only be led with one wife, which is irrelevant
> of the office as everyone was encouraged to
> lead a blameless life.
The "blameless life" was encouraged for everyone, but required for elders, deacons, bishops, and priests.
This was true in Judaism, too--a rabbi had to have only ONE wife. Having one wife was spiritually superior to and more virtuous than having several, or not having any.
--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
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(20 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 8:51 AM
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> JH,
>
> > > In any case, the clergy were supposed to
> live
> > > the lives that others were to aspire to
> achieving,
> > > and the priesthood was allowed to marry, so
> the
> > > goal of the laity was clearly monogamy
> between
> > > one man and one woman, not polygamy.
> >
> > A totally unwarranted assumption. Are all
> Catholics
> > taught to aspire to live a life of celibacy?
>
> Non-sequitor, as 1 Timothy clearly states that
> priests were allowed to marry at that time. At that
> time, monogamy was the standard for everyone, and the
> priests had to uphold it. You'll note that priestly
> celibacy came centuries later, and initially caused
> the schism that resulted in the Greek Orthodox
> Church.
Indeed. Priests were allowed to marry at that time, before Constantine started the Catholic church.
--
"Behave yourself poppa, we're not on the compound." My Nicki
"i know, i know, i disrupt your pleasing echo chamber effect." The Fen-man
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(19 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 8:47 AM
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> > > Requiring rabbis and deacons only to have
> one
> > > wife shows that the PREFERRED marital
> custom
> > > was monogamy.
> >
> > That's an assumption that many make, but it's
> not
> > thorough.
> >
> > It could very well be that this priestly class
> of
> > person would be expected to be too busy to be
> > pursuing goals of plural marriage.
>
> Except that Titus stipulates a class of person for
> monogamy who is not a member of the priesthood.
> "Elders" were non-clergy administrators and
> d bureaucrats, not priests, deacons, or bishops. 1
> Timothy stipulates that a blameless life can
> only be led with one wife, which is irrelevant
> of the office as everyone was encouraged to
> lead a blameless life.
Timothy states:
Titus 1:5-6 (New International Version)
5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
*************************
"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife"
There are modern day Christian polygamists who assert that the Greek suggests that the wording means the husband of his first wife -- in other words, never having divorced his first wife. It's a tempting argument for me to believe, but I'm not going to get involved in that, I'm not a Greek scholar.
My position is that it is at least an admonition against serial monogamy and the question of polygamy was not what was being addressed here because it was not a present practical problem or question for the early church to face.
The epistles were largely letters of encouragement and chastisement in dealing with practical problems with real people, they were not intended as voluminous entreaties on doctrine, as I'm sure you're quite aware. They didn't seek to answer every question that may come up -- they were a record of the correspondence between early churches and leaders such as Paul & Timothy about real world problems the churches were experiencing.
> Finally, as the primary stated reason for plural
> marriage is procreation, and procreation cannot be
> separated from sex, then you cannot consider a new
> candidate to become your additional wife without
> thinking about sex with her, also known as "lust".
> Matthew 5:27-28 stipulates that you commit adultery
> y with a woman just by looking at her with lust in
> your heart. Thus if you are married, you will cheat
> on your wife simply by looking for a second wife,
> making the act of looking for your next wife into a
> sexual sin.
Your intellect is truly dizzying Vizzini. Perhaps your monogamous dogmatism breaks down at the point where you start defining lust.
--
"Behave yourself poppa, we're not on the compound." My Nicki
"i know, i know, i disrupt your pleasing echo chamber effect." The Fen-man
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(18 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 8:36 AM
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JH,
> > In any case, the clergy were supposed to live
> > the lives that others were to aspire to achieving,
> > and the priesthood was allowed to marry, so the
> > goal of the laity was clearly monogamy between
> > one man and one woman, not polygamy.
>
> A totally unwarranted assumption. Are all Catholics
> taught to aspire to live a life of celibacy?
Non-sequitor, as 1 Timothy clearly states that priests were allowed to marry at that time. At that time, monogamy was the standard for everyone, and the priests had to uphold it. You'll note that priestly celibacy came centuries later, and initially caused the schism that resulted in the Greek Orthodox Church.
Obviously Catholicism had a lot of explaining to do when they settled on celibate priests, but Catholicism got around the "do as I say, not as I do" problem by making marriage practically equal to the priesthood in the doctrine: you hit a fork in the road with marriage in one direction and the priesthood in another, but both roads run in parallel to each other in the same direction towards God, neither one higher than the other.
While today the priesthood is denied marriage and procreation, right up until the decision to start priestly celibacy the standard was monogamy for everyone, as the standard for the priesthood listed very important stuff for the laity as well as the "husband to one wife" concept: sobriety, vigilance, ruling your household, all things which are mentioned in the Bible as "good behavior".
You are arbitrarily excluding "husband to one wife" while arbitrarily retaining the remainder as "ideals for all to aspire to".
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(17 of 31)
Re: Pro and Anti Polygamy verses in the bible.
Mar 22, 2008 8:26 AM
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> > Requiring rabbis and deacons only to have one
> > wife shows that the PREFERRED marital custom
> > was monogamy.
>
> That's an assumption that many make, but it's not
> thorough.
>
> It could very well be that this priestly class of
> person would be expected to be too busy to be
> pursuing goals of plural marriage.
Except that Titus stipulates a class of person for monogamy who is not a member of the priesthood. "Elders" were non-clergy administrators and bureaucrats, not priests, deacons, or bishops. 1 Timothy stipulates that a blameless life can only be led with one wife, which is irrelevant of the office as everyone was encouraged to lead a blameless life.
Besides, look at the rest of the standard: in 1 Timothy we are told that a blameless life includes additional stuff beyond monogamy: "vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; ruling their children and their own houses well." If "husband to one wife" is something which only applies to the priesthood, then clearly all the other stuff applies only to the priesthood, and the "faithful" can be drunkards, apathetic, given to bad behavior, never providing hospitality, refusing to teach others, allowing their children to run amok, and allowing their houses to fall into disrepair. I'm fairly certain that half a dozen commandments are broken if all of that is allowed to the "faithful" and only required of the priesthood.
1 Corinthians 7:2 stipulates that a woman should have a husband of her own, an impossibility in a polygynous marriage. If you consider that everyone in a polygamous marriage is "married to each other" then it is also impossible for the husband to have "a wife of his own" because she is married to other women in the polygamous marriage.
Finally, as the primary stated reason for plural marriage is procreation, and procreation cannot be separated from sex, then you cannot consider a new candidate to become your additional wife without thinking about sex with her, also known as "lust". Matthew 5:27-28 stipulates that you commit adultery with a woman just by looking at her with lust in your heart. Thus if you are married, you will cheat on your wife simply by looking for a second wife, making the act of looking for your next wife into a sexual sin.
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