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This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
Hello! I'm new here and just wanted to pop in and join some of the discussion regarding polygamy, Big Love, and the FLDS Church. I was born and raised in the FLDS Church, my father had 4 wives and 31 children; I was his 28th child. I left the FLDS when I was 19 and joined the Marines to get away. I am now a Baptist Minister working in prison minister and Christian Theological Education (discipleship). I've also written a book about my experiences growing up in a polygamist Mormon home. Its the first book from the male perspective. Most folks out there don't understand the pressure that young men are under to be worthy of remaining in the community. If each worthy man has to have at least three wives to progress to godhood, then for every plural wife he takes a young man has to be driven from the community. If he has three wives, then two of them are plural wives, and two men have to go! That means that right off the bat at least 2/3rds of the male population in a polygamist community have to go. But the elite aren't content with just three wives. Many have more than that. Winston Blackmore who was resently arrested in Canada has 20 wives. That means that 19 are extra and 19 young men have to leave just for him to have those wives. Warren Jeffs is rumored to have over 120 wives. That means 119 young men have to go just for this one man to have that many wives. A conservative estimate would be that 75% of the male population has to be found unworthy and driven from the community. Now...imagine that you're a mother in that community and you have 4 sons. Which 1 gets to stay and which 3 are you going to allow them to drive from your life? The weeding out process is a silent process. There aren't clear cut rules, its hidden, its secret, its political. -- -Brian Mackert Minister & Author of "Illegitimate - How a Loving God Rescued a Son of Polygamy". -- Edited by Illegitimate at 04/03/2009 6:02 AM PDT -- Edited by Illegitimate at 04/03/2009 6:04 AM PDT
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162
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(79 of 94)
Apr 20, 2009 12:44 AM
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> > The JOD was considered 'doctrine' by the
> mormons;
> > right up until they decided it was NOT doctrine
> and
> > ordered all copies in saints' homes returned
> > (consecrated) to the 'church'.
>
>
> Rainmom,
>
> Then the Church should have asked LDS Library, a
> software company based in Orem Utah to stop including
> the journals on their CD collection of LDS books. I
> just got the latest version and the Journals are
> still there all 27 volumes totally uncensored.
>
> Are you sure what you posted is not just a Mormon
> Urban Legend?
Zoar,
Could be. It was a story told in my polygamous family oral history; interestingly, BOTH sides of the family. It was also 'rumor' told in church when I was young, which certainly doesn't prove anything.
But the other 'rumors' being discussed in church at that same time included saints becoming gods and godesses of their own planets, Quaker-like folks on the moon and Joseph Fielding Smith stating that man would NEVER reach the moon. Heard it with my own ears. And we know how that ended just a few years later.
I could go on and on with the endless list of mormon rumors/doctrine/policy of yesteryear that "we don't know much about today". But it's late and, like everything else mormon, it's anyone's guess. Doctrine/policy/programs/advice/rumor/suggestions all change so quickly and quietly within the 'church'. There's just no pinning anything down other than the fact that Joseph Smith was a disgusting fraud.
But I will ask the 3 nephites about it next time we talk.
--
Edited by rainmom at 04/19/2009 9:46 PM PDT
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755
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(78 of 94)
Apr 19, 2009 9:58 PM
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> The JOD was considered 'doctrine' by the mormons;
> right up until they decided it was NOT doctrine and
> ordered all copies in saints' homes returned
> (consecrated) to the 'church'.
Rainmom,
Then the Church should have asked LDS Library, a software company based in Orem Utah to stop including the journals on their CD collection of LDS books. I just got the latest version and the Journals are still there all 27 volumes totally uncensored.
Are you sure what you posted is not just a Mormon Urban Legend?
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275
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10/7/03
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(77 of 94)
Apr 19, 2009 12:29 PM
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Semper Fi Rev. I knew a guy once when I was active duty who was FLDS kid who had been "taken for the drive" as he put it. Genuinely a nice guy who would give you the shirt off his back but he put 17 years worth of neglect and abuse into an agression that was almost superhuman during training. Our platoon leader stopped letting him participate in hand to hand combat drills. I wonder what happens to those boys who can't find a productive outlet for all that anger and agression?
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Posts:
7
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4/18/09
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(76 of 94)
Apr 18, 2009 10:33 PM
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WOW! This is very interesting! I have been a big fan of the show since the first episode, yet I have never known anyone that actually flds! I am SOO ready for next season to start!
Margene rocks!!!
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125
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(75 of 94)
Apr 15, 2009 9:41 AM
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Rainmom and others -- Yipes! When did this happen?
The JOD was considered 'doctrine' by the mormons; right up until they decided it was NOT doctrine and ordered all copies in saints' homes returned (consecrated) to the 'church'.
Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
novelmatters.blogspot.com
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23
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4/3/09
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(74 of 94)
Apr 14, 2009 9:26 AM
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> Brian
>
> About 12 years ago I worked with a man named Paul
> Mackert who told me he was raised FLDS with 30 some
> siblings and four mothers. Are you brothers? I lost
> touch with Paul many years ago. He was a good friend
> and helped me with a particularly crappy Ford Bronco
> I drove at the time. He was a great mechanic!
>
> I went to your web site and will definately be buying
> your book (probably this weekend). I'm sure it is an
> amazing story.
>
> Take care
Paul is my brother and he now lives near me. If you would like his email to reconnect with him email me at brian.mackert@gmail.com and I'll forward your email to him. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the book, and thanks for buying it.
--
-Brian Mackert
Minister & Author of "Illegitimate - How a Loving God Rescued a Son of Polygamy."
--
Edited by Illegitimate at 04/14/2009 6:27 AM PDT
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Posts:
10,816
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(73 of 94)
Apr 12, 2009 11:37 PM
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Ouch!
Congratulations on your marriage, Brian, and I hope you feel much, much better tomorrow!
A tip - they're called the McKenzie exercises. Start by lying face down, on the floor, or, better, a table so you don't have to get up from the floor. When your back relaxes enough, come up on your elbows for a few seconds. When you can hold that for a count of ten, come up to what is considered the cobra position in yoga (or as close as you can get to it). Repeat until your back feels better.
Seriously, these exercises (there are more, but this is the basic emergency fix) work miracles for back spasm. They cured me of 30 years of back problems.
Here's the book - Treat Your Own Back
--
"When you label something, you dismiss it."
...............Harry Dean Stanton
--
Edited by Marionj2 at 04/12/2009 8:43 PM PDT
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Posts:
23
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4/3/09
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(72 of 94)
Apr 12, 2009 11:15 PM
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Hey Ya'll,
Sorry I'm slow on replying to your posts. I got married this weekend and I am still in the process of moving. I threw out my back moving and I still have a lot of work to do to make the move complete so please forgive me if it take awhile to repond to your questions.
Please pray for me that my back heals quickly and that everything goes smoothly in spite of my back injury. Its kinda difficult to celebrate your honeymoon when your back is out.
--
-Brian Mackert
Minister & Author of "Illegitimate - How a Loving God Rescued a Son of Polygamy."
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Posts:
96
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3/23/09
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(71 of 94)
Apr 11, 2009 5:52 PM
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EV,
>
> There's also the matter of simple biology. XY sperm
> are required for male children, but XY sperm are
> weaker and swim slower than XX sperm (XX sperm are
> the Olympic athletes of sperm; XY sperm are the couch
> potatoes of sperm).
>
> One way in which to improve chances for a XY sperm is
> to make the woman have a number of orgasms before the
> man ejaculates (thus causing the vaginal passage and
> the womb to be less acidic and easier to swim
> through), and thus if you want to have a daughter, it
> is statistically good for the woman not to enjoy the
> reproductive intercourse at all. This is why
> arranged marriages usually have mostly daughters, and
> why marriages which started off passionate but which
> became "boring" most often have firstborn sons while
> all the later children are daughters.
>
> I doubt very much that female pleasure is something
> the FLDS man even remembers, let alone puts any
> serious work into it. Certainly the FLDS women
> aren't encouraged to have "quality personal time"
> before having sex with their husbands.
>
> Statistically speaking its a bit of a reach to claim
> that a sexually-repressed FLDS compound won't be
> overflowing with daughters and desperately trying to
> figure out how to have more sons. Yes, sons are
> often discarded by FLDS, but that is bad enough
> without using bad math to try and make it
> sound worse than it already is.
>
There is a tremendous amount of junk science in this contention. First, it is generally understood that sperm carrying a Y chromosome (male sperm0 swim faster (remember that women always contribute the second X), but don't live as long as X. Most sex choosing methods then try and time intercourse around the time of ovulation, under the assumption that sex during ovulation will produce more males, but intercourse a day or two before will increase the chance of a girl, because the Y's should die sooner. But even with these methods, you are talking about a very slight increase in percentage changes. Actually, slightly more male babies are born in the general population, but infant mortality is a bit higher for boys as well, so census populations should reflect a higher population for females, and then it increases dramatically in the upper ages because women tend to live longer.
IOW, I do not think that the number of orgasms FLDS women are having is a big factor, but placing wives on a schedule around ovulation might be a bigger issue.
And Illegitimate is pretty correct, which is that that younger virile males are a real threat to the leadership or elite of a polygamous community. Remember, traditional communities were generally involved in warfare. As an initial matter, FLDS teens have the same impulses that teens have anywhere, so if you want to marry them off to older men, younger teen males don't help, particularly if these older guys are not really interested in the female orgasm
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1
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4/10/09
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(70 of 94)
Apr 10, 2009 2:30 PM
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Brian
About 12 years ago I worked with a man named Paul Mackert who told me he was raised FLDS with 30 some siblings and four mothers. Are you brothers? I lost touch with Paul many years ago. He was a good friend and helped me with a particularly crappy Ford Bronco I drove at the time. He was a great mechanic!
I went to your web site and will definately be buying your book (probably this weekend). I'm sure it is an amazing story.
Take care
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Posts:
2,714
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3/27/06
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(69 of 94)
Apr 9, 2009 10:57 PM
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> JH,
>
> I have all the JOD?s and more on my computer. It is a
> program called LDS Library and it has a very
> extensive search engine. I once queried the
> following search words, polygamy, plural marriage
> celestial marriage plurality of wives and got so many
> hits it would take me months to read them all. If a
> person wants to learn about 19th century Mormon
> polygamy the JOD?s is where to find it.
Thanks BZ,
A lotta stuff there, probly more than my small mind could contain -- it just seems to me that quotas like that three wife rule are the refuge of small minds and I haven't seen anything from JS or BY to make me think that they thought that way.
--
"I believe the church and its leaders are in grave error on polygamy, and on the kinds of marriages and families it creates. I can't forsake my family." Sister Barbara Dutton Henrickson
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755
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(68 of 94)
Apr 9, 2009 10:10 PM
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> I'd be interested in those quotes of "Brigham Young
> screeching from the pulpit" tho, if you've got some
> sorta link -- that sounds like a real hoot. 
JH,
I have all the JOD?s and more on my computer. It is a program called LDS Library and it has a very extensive search engine. I once queried the following search words, polygamy, plural marriage celestial marriage plurality of wives and got so many hits it would take me months to read them all. If a person wants to learn about 19th century Mormon polygamy the JOD?s is where to find it.
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Posts:
162
Registered:
2/28/09
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(67 of 94)
Apr 9, 2009 7:50 PM
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> > The Journal Of Discourses includes numerous
> examples
> > of Brigham Young screeching from the pulpit of
> the
> > old SLC tabernacle, reminding the 'saints'
> that,
> > indeed, 3 wives are required to enter #3 C
> heaven.
>
> Well, that's an interesting anecdote Rainmom, but
> doing a Google search the only LDS leader of any type
> that I found going on record was Lorin C. Woolley who
> had this quote attributed to him:
> "To be the head of a Dispensation, 7 wives
> necessary. [The head of] the Patriarchal Order must
> have 5 wives. President of the Church - 3 wives.
> (BOR 21; Items 16). See also Moroni Jessop,
> , "Testimony of Moroni Jessop," 2. Among the
> LeBarons "A small percentage of the leaders of the
> sect have between five and nine wives, adhering to
> the sect's code of building up a 'quorum.' Three are
> needed for a rudimentary quorum, five wives are
> adequate for a medium quorum, but seven and sometimes
> twelve wives are required for the highest quorum of
> all."
> http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequi
> redToday.htm * See Footnote #12
>
> The closest I found to a requirement for polygamy is
> this quote from BY in JoD 11.269:
> The only men who become
> Gods even the sons of God are
> those who enter into polygamy.
> Others attain unto a glory and may
> even be permitted to come into the
> presence of the Father and the Son;
> but they cannot reign as kings in
> glory because they had blessings
> offered unto them and they refused
> to accept them.
> http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=
> /JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9607&REC=11
>
> However a fundamentalist Mormon website had many
> words quoted from BY that suggested that polygamy was
> something that depended greatly on the circumstances
> and there was no such hard and fast rule here:
> Brigham Young thought similarly: "If you desire
> with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which
> Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in
> your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the
> salvation and the glory which Abraham has
> obtained."[3] On other occasions he instructed: "A
> man may embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his
> heart and not take the second wife and be justified
> before the Lord."[4] "If it is wrong for a man to
> have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will
> reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it
> will not be known in the Church."[5] "If it is
> necessary to have two wives, take them. If it is
> right, reasonable and proper and the Lord permits a
> man to take half a dozen wives, take them; but if the
> Lord says let them alone, let them alone. How long?
> Until we go down to the grave, if the Lord demand
> d it."[6] "If we could make every man upon the earth
> get him a wife, live righteously and serve God, we
> would not be under the necessity, perhaps, of taking
> more than one wife. But they will not do this; the
> people of God, therefore, have been commanded to take
> more wives."[7] Apostle John Henry Smith recalled
> that "President Young once proposed that we marry but
> one wife."[8]
> http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequi
> redToday.htm
>
> I'd be interested in those quotes of "Brigham Young
> screeching from the pulpit" tho, if you've got some
> sorta link -- that sounds like a real hoot.
>
> --
> "I believe the church and its leaders are in grave
> error on polygamy, and on the kinds of marriages and
> families it creates. I can't forsake my family."
> Sister Barbara Dutton Henrickson
Yes, I probably remember his screechings from sections of the JOD that have now been removed from the internet. Big surprise.
Since loaning my sections of the JOD to a mormon years ago I can't reference it anymore.
Stupid move, I know.
Of course, your examples above clearly show his mindset and intent. And he WAS an egomaniac LOON.
Now I can only rely on memory and family history of polygamy. And it is a hoot, I guess, but not a very happy story.
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2,714
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(66 of 94)
Apr 9, 2009 7:39 PM
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> The Journal Of Discourses includes numerous examples
> of Brigham Young screeching from the pulpit of the
> old SLC tabernacle, reminding the 'saints' that,
> indeed, 3 wives are required to enter #3 C heaven.
Well, that's an interesting anecdote Rainmom, but doing a Google search the only LDS leader of any type that I found going on record in giving a minimum no. of required wives was Lorin C. Woolley who had this quote attributed to him:
"To be the head of a Dispensation, 7 wives necessary. [The head of] the Patriarchal Order must have 5 wives. President of the Church - 3 wives. (BOR 21; Items 16). See also Moroni Jessop, "Testimony of Moroni Jessop," 2. Among the LeBarons "A small percentage of the leaders of the sect have between five and nine wives, adhering to the sect's code of building up a 'quorum.' Three are needed for a rudimentary quorum, five wives are adequate for a medium quorum, but seven and sometimes twelve wives are required for the highest quorum of all."
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequiredToday.htm * See Footnote #12
The closest I found to a requirement for polygamy from BY is this quote in JoD 11.269:
The only men who become
Gods even the sons of God are
those who enter into polygamy.
Others attain unto a glory and may
even be permitted to come into the
presence of the Father and the Son;
but they cannot reign as kings in
glory because they had blessings
offered unto them and they refused
to accept them.
http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/JournalOfDiscourses3&CISOPTR=9607&REC=11
However a fundamentalist Mormon website had many words quoted from BY that suggested that polygamy was something that depended greatly on the circumstances and there was no such hard and fast rule here:
Brigham Young thought similarly: "If you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained."[3] On other occasions he instructed: "A man may embrace the Law of Celestial Marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord."[4] "If it is wrong for a man to have more than one wife at a time, the Lord will reveal it by and by, and he will put it away that it will not be known in the Church."[5] "If it is necessary to have two wives, take them. If it is right, reasonable and proper and the Lord permits a man to take half a dozen wives, take them; but if the Lord says let them alone, let them alone. How long? Until we go down to the grave, if the Lord demand it."[6] "If we could make every man upon the earth get him a wife, live righteously and serve God, we would not be under the necessity, perhaps, of taking more than one wife. But they will not do this; the people of God, therefore, have been commanded to take more wives."[7] Apostle John Henry Smith recalled that "President Young once proposed that we marry but one wife."[8]
http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/IsPMRequiredToday.htm
I'd be interested in those quotes of "Brigham Young screeching from the pulpit" tho, if you've got some sorta link -- that sounds like a real hoot.
--
"I believe the church and its leaders are in grave error on polygamy, and on the kinds of marriages and families it creates. I can't forsake my family." Sister Barbara Dutton Henrickson
--
Edited by JustHangin at 04/09/2009 4:48 PM PDT
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162
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2/28/09
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(65 of 94)
Apr 9, 2009 7:28 PM
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> > It appears that women, especially, need to get
> over
> > their desire for one husband. What exactly are
> the
> > men "getting over" or "giving up" by having sex
> with
> > numerous women and girls?
> > How is impregnating numerous women/girls
> > "suppressing" their sexual desires?
>
> When I made the comment I was speaking strictly of
> what is taught the women. Men give up nothing
> sexually but have to learn to manage their wives and
> families to rule over them as it were.
>
> --
> -Brian Mackert
> Minister & Author of
> "Illegitimate -
> How a Loving God Rescued a Son of Polygamy."
So the men's burden is not repression of sexual desire but the burden of managing and ruling. That's how I've always viewed it but I don't think it's much of a burden to manage and rule over women. It seems more of a reward. IMHO
What is your personal opinion as to why Joe Smith decided to make polygamy and progeny the core "doctrine" of mormonism? Do you believe it was the core doctrine of mormonism, under JS? What do you think his motives were?
Thx in advance.
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