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This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
I've been a lurker for years and now need some information from the experts on the BL boards. If someone is a catholic and marries a mormon but doesn't change their religion and doesn't even believe in mormonism is baptized/sealed to their spouse in the wake of thier death appropriate? How does this work and how does it affect the catholic children of the spouse from their first marriage? This is personal so any feedback is appreciated!
BTW...BIG fan of Nikki and whether she's with the Henrickson's or not, she'll always be one of the biggest draws on the show. I think she's more attached to Barb than Bill and will miss her sister wives more than anything if it goes through. Can't wait to see her with her daughter.
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 8:57 PM
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Yes Bigloveruvr, one of the key concepts is that the spirt can refuse the sealing/baptism if they choose too.
So in big love terms, Ginger's soul has a choice of accepting the baptism or refusing it as a spirit. If anything, it helped Marg in her lost of her mom, that she has a hope to see her mom in heaven.
--
Very cordially yours, Drgong
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 8:00 PM
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Bigloveluvr, you've expressed some feelings others share.
Click here for some information and additional documentation about the baptisms done for deceased Jews and the outrage that caused.
Happy to answer questions for you. If anyone else has information I'm always learning too.
Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 7:19 PM
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Thank you all VERY much for explaining this to me...it's as I thought it to be. This is a very intimate question to ask as it involves my loved ones.
I don't agree with it. I'm obviously not a mormon, as stated, but a catholic who's open to hearing about any different religion out of interest. I'm not sold on the realism of Mormonism but that's just my view. I respect the religion, however, because a few of my family members married into the family practice it.
What bothers me is the proxy and that someone feels they have the right to do this on behalf of the dead for what I feel is disrespectful and self-indulgent.
The only reason I'm not furious is that I believe this won't happen in the afterlife and this is just a belief. I liked the poster who stated they'd have free will. That makes me feel better.
Thank you. Feel free to comment more...the more I read the more I learn.
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 5:06 PM
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Hi mixedmess.
A sealing in a temple means the earthly family relationship becomes eternal. A marriage becomes eternal, a child-parent relationship becomes eternal. So a child can be sealed to his/her parents (which of course wouldn't involve a marriage.) This is only done when the parents go to the temple and get their endowments AFTER the children are born. (Children born to a temple-endowed, temple-married couple are considered "sealed" without any further ceremony.)
But anyone who is a non-Mormon at death must first have a vicarious or proxy baptism done for him or her in a Mormon temple -- before any proxy or vicarious sealings that they can supposedly "accept" or "reject" in the spirit world -- as previous posts have very accurately described.
Now, an additional wrinkle on this is that Mormons believe the spirit world -- where all deceased persons reside -- is actually here on the earth, just invisible. Thus when I was a Mormon and went to the Manti Utah or Provo Temple to do vicarious baptisms for dead persons, I believed that the 30 women (Manti) and 15 women (Provo) for whom I was being baptized were actually watching me do it, and deciding to accept it or reject it
In one of my books, Why We Left Mormonism, one woman named Sheila Garrigus described that while she was doing a proxy baptism on behalf of her deceased grandmother, she believed she was able to briefly "see" her grandmother accepting the baptism.
So what does this have to do with Barb's temple experience? Many, many Mormons believe they have seen dead relatives in the temple. Barb would have undoubtedly be thinking about that -- and the fact that leaving the mainstream LDS church meant that she might never have that experience again.
Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
novelmatters.blogspot.com
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 1:16 PM
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Drgong wrote:
> Thanks, Hollis Green is SO creepy that I enjoy it
> when him and his odd clan shows up. I mean, its
> David Lynch time! I mean, If I was to become a Mormon
> Polygamist Phophet, it would be tempting to mimic
> Hollis Green, just in the sense that no one is gonna
> mess with ya.
LOL 
this is so perfect!!!exactly- you made my day!
This indeed is a very weird enjoyment and pleasure with Hollis&Co, just that I didn't realize what it was
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4bee
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 19, 2009 12:39 PM
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> > > Here's another question.... by now isn't
> > everyone at
> > > Juniper Creek sealed to each other...
> they've
> > > probably married and remarried and are all
> > related to
> > > each other at this point.
> >
> > There not all sealed to each other, but polygamy
> DOES
> > Mean that there is dynastic families and much
> quicker
> > inbreeding.
> >
> > --
> > Very cordially yours, Drgong
>
> Love your sig, Drgong!
>
Thanks, Hollis Green is SO creepy that I enjoy it when him and his odd clan shows up. I mean, its David Lynch time! I mean, If I was to become a Mormon Polygamist Phophet, it would be tempting to mimic Hollis Green, just in the sense that no one is gonna mess with ya.
--
Very cordially yours, Drgong
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 11:31 PM
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> BigLoveLuvr: It's not just spouses of Mormons who
> could be subjected to an unwanted baptism by proxy --
> untold numbers of Jews who died in the Holocaust -- and God knows how many of other denominations -- were
> similarly violated.
>
> http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html
>
> I don't know if the Mormon church is still
> sanctioning this; I haven't kept up on it. I'm sure
> you could Google it and find much more. I stumbled
> across this information while researching my
> genealogy. This might explain why so many
> international databases of genealogy are funded by
> the LDS.
>
> It takes an incredible amount of chutzpah to perform
> religious rites on the unwilling, and especially on
> dead people of another faith altogether.
>
> I wonder how the LDS who participated in these
> ritualistically abusive ceremonies would like if we
> held an un-baptism ceremony for Joseph Smith.
>
> --
> Edited by ChicagoViewer2 at 03/18/2009 4:20 PM PDT
--
Edited by ChicagoViewer2 at 03/18/2009 8:32 PM PDT
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 10:30 PM
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I'm glad I found this thread because I was wondering if they've shown anyone being sealed in the show, since there was alot of talk about it in this episode.
Is it part of the marriage ceremony?
Would Roman have sealed Nicki to Bill? Did Bill do it himself?
How will Bill be unsealed to Nicki?
I guess I thought the only Henricksons sealed were Barb and Bill. Anyone?
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 9:53 PM
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> > Here's another question.... by now isn't
> everyone at
> > Juniper Creek sealed to each other... they've
> > probably married and remarried and are all
> related to
> > each other at this point.
>
> There not all sealed to each other, but polygamy DOES
> Mean that there is dynastic families and much quicker
> inbreeding.
>
> --
> Very cordially yours, Drgong
Love your sig, Drgong!
--
Oliver Wendell Holmes:
"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."
"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 9:45 PM
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Good complex question.
> I've been a lurker for years and now need some
> information from the experts on the BL boards. If
> someone is a catholic and marries a mormon but
> doesn't change their religion and doesn't even
> believe in mormonism is baptized/sealed to their
> spouse in the wake of thier death appropriate? How
> does this work and how does it affect the catholic
> children of the spouse from their first marriage?
> This is personal so any feedback is appreciated!
Since a non-member would never be able to enter the Temple, it would have to happen posthumoulsy. But as to t being appropriate, it would only happen if they had children (or descendants further down the line)who were or became LDS who then submitted their names for Temple work. I would guess, but am not certain that they would be allowed to submit names for other family members, but even that would wait until they are deceased since proxy work cannot be done for the living. So assuming that someone never was LDS in their lives but have LDS descendants, their names would be submitted to the Temple and the work would subsequently be done to have all non-LDS family members baptized, confirmed, and endowed. Then sealings would also be performed for all applicable relations(between spouses and between parents and children). In cases where a person had been married more than once they are sealed to each of their spouses separately (once all the work has been done for each of them). It is understood that there is no conflict if a man happens to end up sealed to multiple wives and that the potential conflict involved with a wife being sealed to multiple husbands is resolved elsewhere, most likely in the spirit world where the individuals invlved would be free to accept or reject any work done on their behalf. But we are obligated to do it in order to give them the option and opportunity.
Hope this helps.
--
Edited by NoTouch at 03/19/2009 6:04 PM PDT
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 8:54 PM
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> Here's another question.... by now isn't everyone at
> Juniper Creek sealed to each other... they've
> probably married and remarried and are all related to
> each other at this point.
There not all sealed to each other, but polygamy DOES Mean that there is dynastic families and much quicker inbreeding.
--
Very cordially yours, Drgong
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 8:52 PM
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> Here's another question.... by now isn't everyone at
> Juniper Creek sealed to each other... they've
> probably married and remarried and are all related to
> each other at this point.
Too funny!
Who knows how they handle that!  But I remember one scene where their was a family reunion and a portrait scheduled and Adaleen was breezily running through about two hundred of her sibs.
Mary Kay Place does great air head! Reminds me so fondly of Mary Harman! Mary Hartman!
--
Edited by laverite at 03/18/2009 5:54 PM PDT
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 8:44 PM
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Here's another question.... by now isn't everyone at Juniper Creek sealed to each other... they've probably married and remarried and are all related to each other at this point.
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 7:44 PM
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> OK...I'm back and still confused. Some of this
> verbiage doesn't make sense as I'm not a mormon and
> this is new to me (I only know from others that I
> know and from articles, shows, etc.).
>
> So the mormon spouse can just make the decision to
> seal and baptize (same thing?) to the passed spouse
> even if they didn't believe in mormonism? That
> doesn't seem right to me for some reason.
The person has free will, and can reject it in the hereafter...
--
Very cordially yours, Drgong
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Re: Sealing/baptism question
Mar 18, 2009 7:38 PM
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> OK...I'm back and still confused. Some of this
> verbiage doesn't make sense as I'm not a mormon and
> this is new to me (I only know from others that I
> know and from articles, shows, etc.).
>
> So the mormon spouse can just make the decision to
> seal and baptize (same thing?) to the passed spouse
> even if they didn't believe in mormonism? That
> doesn't seem right to me for some reason.
Yes, and what you describe does happen all the time. Often this stuff causes real upset between living family members who have different interpretations of what the deceased "really" wanted. But, hey!, that's families...
What happens in the case you describe is the deceased (let's say it was the husband) is first baptized by proxy (that happened to Margene's mother, Ginger, in a recent episode). Once he is baptized Mormon, he can then be sealed in much the same by proxy manner. A living person stands in for him (as Barb did for Ginger) and the deceased husband, through that proxy, is sealed to the still living spouse.
What the sealing means is that an LDS priest joins them in a sacred bond that continues after death throughout all of the eternities (Mormons believe in an unspecified number of them during which people perfect themselves so that they can become gods like Jesus Christ did). A temple sealing is a minimum requirement to enter into godhood in Mormon theology.
In addition to the sealing of the husband and wife (or wives, Mormon men can still be sealed to numerous wives for eternity, it just has to happen one at a time; women can only be sealed to one husband), children are also sealed to their families for all of the eternities (you may remember in the last episode at her ward hearing Barb's bishop pronounced her ties to all her progenitors severed for all eternity and that's the part that devastated her).
Now, the obvious question is, what if the deceased doesn't want to be baptized and sealed?
The Mormon answer is they are free to reject it from the spirit prison they're in in the after life because they aren't Mormon. But, unless some living person does these "ordinances" for them, they can't move out of the spiritual prison in which they will have to wait, unperfected, for the Second Coming and the resurrection and will never have any opportunity to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
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