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somewhere in texas

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ELDORADO, Texas ? Law enforcement agents entered an enormous temple on the grounds of a polygamist compound, but by Sunday morning they still had not found a 16-year-old girl whose initial report of abuse led to the raid.

"There were some tense moments last night, but everything has remained calm and peaceful and they are continuing their search," said Allison Palmer, a prosecutor from a nearby county handling the case, early Sunday.

More than 180 women and children were taken Friday and Saturday from the compound built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, but Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services, said Sunday that investigators were still trying to determine whether the girl who called authorities last week was among them.

Many of the girls in the sect are related to one another and share similar names, Meisner said.

A busload of women were seen talking to law enforcement and a lawyer at a civic center early Sunday.

Palmer said Child Protective Services was still trying to identify the 16-year-old, and it wasn't clear if she was among those being interviewed or was even in the area.


Mohave Co. Sheriff
Dale Barlow State troopers armed with a search warrant raided the compound on Friday to look for evidence of a marriage between the girl, who allegedly had a baby at 15, and 50-year-old Dale Barlow.

Under Texas law, girls younger than 16 cannot marry, even with parental approval.

Barlow's probation officer told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona.

"He said the authorities had called him (in Colorado City, Ariz.) and some girl had accused him of assaulting her and he didn't even know who she was," said Bill Loader, a probation officer in Arizona.

Palmer said Texas authorities have been in contact with those in Arizona but have not yet talked to Barlow. No arrests have been made.

Barlow was sentenced to jail time last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

The search warrant instructed officers to look for marriage records or other evidence linking her to the man and the baby. The warrant authorized the seizure of computer drives, CDs, DVDs or photos.

Those inside the retreat did not respond to requests for comment.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headed by Jeffs after his father's death in 2002, broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

The compound sits down a narrow paved road and behind a hill that shields it almost entirely from view in town. Only the 80-foot-high, white temple can be seen on the horizon. It remained lit throughout the night.

The 1,700-acre property had been an exotic game ranch, dotted with many buildings. Palmer said she couldn't say whether authorities had entered all the buildings but called it "a detailed search."

Eldorado (pronounced el-dor-AY'-do) is a two-stoplight town of fewer than 2,000 people and located nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. It consists of a cluster of government buildings, a couple churches and a few blocks of houses surrounded by dusty, wind-swept land where sheep are raised and mohair is produced.

State officials said they did not know how many people lived at the retreat. Local officials estimated two years ago that about 150 people were there.

Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.



is this outrageous or what? how do you personally make of it? is the one bad apple spoiling the bunch? or is it just one of the few offenses made on this compound? what do you think should happen?
Last Post Apr 14, 2008 1:55 PM by: NeoMystic
NeoMystic
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 14, 2008 1:55 PM
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Duets---again your researching abilities have served the greater good.

It's fascinating, having read that brief letter, to note the similar philosophy of war between LDS and Shi'a Islam, which bans offensive war unless sanctioned by the Prophet Muhammad or the Occulted Mahdi. The similarities are overwhelming.

--
Force and Mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins.
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 13, 2008 8:17 PM
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Zoar, NeoMystic,

Here is a link that I found which discusses war from an lds viewpoint. Zoar, I'm sure that you're very familiar with what's in this written piece; but I thought it would be interesting for those of us who aren't so familiar with the subject.

an lds view of war

--
duets

--
Edited by duets at 04/13/2008 5:27 PM PDT
zoar63
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 13, 2008 7:58 PM
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> What is Mormon doctrine regarding opposition to war?
> Does this violate the 'laws of the land,' that the
> Scripture alluded to?


nm,

In answer to that question:

?Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;?


If this country was a Mormon theocracy, I guess the policy would be to never instigate a war and if another nation declares war, exhaust all peaceful options before going to war. However since this nation is composed of many different sects and viewpoints, the above is a moot point. So as far as opposing war, do what your conscience tells you to do as long as you do not violate any laws.
NeoMystic
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 13, 2008 1:57 PM
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Zoar---can we then assert the following regarding pacifist doctrines:

1. God blesses pacifism and praises resilience to provocation of violence.

2. In as much as is feasible, God's people should renounce violence unless provoked to a point whereby they face annihiliation (as had occurred at various points in Mormon history).

Okay---if those assertions are correct, here are a couple more questions:

What is Mormon doctrine regarding opposition to war? Does this violate the 'laws of the land,' that the Scripture alluded to?

What about doctrines of final destination for peaceful, non-violent pagans (e.g. Guatama Buddha, Gandhi, Malcolm X etc.)?

--
Force and Mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins.
kmm122689
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 12, 2008 2:46 PM
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> Somewhere in texas....
>
> ...a village is missing its idiot
>
>
> Sorry, couldnt resist : )


actually its somewhat factual
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 12, 2008 2:43 PM
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Somewhere in texas....

...a village is missing its idiot


Sorry, couldnt resist : )
zoar63
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 12, 2008 2:26 PM
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nm,

That is a very good question. Yes there is a scriptural teaching on that subject that is found in the Doctrine and Covenants. A whole section is devoted to that topic and also about obeying the law of the land. Here it is:


And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.


Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;


Now, I speak unto you concerning your families--if men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded;

But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you.

And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundredfold.

And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four-fold;

And these three testimonies shall stand against your enemy if he repent not, and shall not be blotted out.

And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your children's children unto the third and fourth generation.

And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your children's children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered thine enemy into thine hands;

And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness; and also thy children and thy children's children unto the third and fourth generation.

Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.

Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles.

And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation, or tongue;

And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord

Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them in going out to battle against that nation, tongue, or people.

And I, the Lord, would fight their battles, and their children's battles, and their children's children's, until they had avenged themselves on all their enemies, to the third and fourth generation.

Behold, this is an ensample unto all people, saith the Lord your God, for justification before me.

And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy?

And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.

And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

And upon his children, and upon his children's children of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.

But if the children shall repent, or the children's children, and turn to the Lord their God, with all their hearts and with all their might, mind, and strength, and restore four-fold for all their trespasses wherewith they have trespassed, or wherewith their fathers have trespassed, or their father's fathers, then thine indignation shall be turned away;

And vengeance shall no more come upon them, saith the Lord thy God, and their trespasses shall never be brought any more as a testimony before the Lord against them. Amen.
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 2:12 PM
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> Mar,
>

> > Me either. As I've tried to explain to wurks,
> my
> > knowledge of Utah before Big Love consisted of
> the
> > Mormon polygamist family in "Paint your Wagon,"
>
> They're Mormon polygamists? I thought they were
> polyandrous--she marries both men, doesn't she?


That's afterwards. When she arrives, it's with her Mormon husband and his other wife. The wives don't like each other, the other one is the favored one, so when the all-male camp suggests that he should auction her off to the highest bidder, she says, "Simplify your life, Jacob. Sell me."

So Ben the drunk (Lee Marvin) buys her, then she falls in love with his Pardner (Clint Eastwood), and marries him as well. "Why not? I was married to two men!"

--
----------------------------
Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com

--
Edited by Marionj2 at 04/11/2008 11:13 AM PDT
titannia
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 1:47 PM
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Mar,

> Me either. As I've tried to explain to wurks, my
> knowledge of Utah before Big Love consisted of the
> Mormon polygamist family in "Paint your Wagon,"


They're Mormon polygamists? I thought they were polyandrous--she marries both men, doesn't she?

> occasional glimpses of Mormon missionaries at NYC
> street fairs, and a brief visit to Salt Lake City
> which made me intensely uncomfortable because of the
> heavy religious emphasis. I remember a lot of women
> in gingham dresses, though. (This was in the early
> 70s.)



I've had Mormon missionaries visit my house once. I never even heard of the compounds til BL, though. My knowledge of Mormon history is limited to one South Park episode, an attempt to read the BOM (which is as Mark Twain described it, chloroform in print--to open it is to fall asleep,) and what I've seen here.

People barely teach their own state's history in school, let alone the infighting and backbiting of other states. I'll wager wurks and zoar don't know a great deal about "Bleeding Kansas," Quantrell's raid, or any of the other fiddly stuff they try to squeeze in about Kansas when they're teaching about the Civil War. A quick look at John Brown's potrait on the way to the Civil War is about all we got--I'm sure they didn't have time for that in other states.

--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
titannia
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 1:41 PM
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zoar,

> T,
>
> I will agree that the government?s treatment of the
> Indians was horrible,


Worse than horrible. It was mandated. There's a difference between turning a blind eye to something bad someone else does, and ordering it in perpetuity yourself.

Ironically, both of these atrocities were religiously motivated. The excuse for "Manifest Destiny"--ie, the complete extermination of the Native Americans, was so that white, Christian people could occupy the entire continent, and it was seen as God's Will, with the European settlers as God's "Chosen People."

In the case of the Mormons, the killings were seen as punishing violators of God's laws, destroying heretics, basically.

It's not the same as genocide, but it does come from the same Godly impulse.


> President Van Buren?s reply to him was, ?Your Cause
> is just but if I were to intervene I would lose the
> vote of the State of Missouri.? Politics at work
> again.


And on another level, religion at work. Without the religious belief that the Mormons were making a mockery of Christianity and marriage, the political level wouldn't even be there.

--
"And, finally, New Rule: If America's richest one-percent are now so rich that even a five-star hotel isn't good enough, it's time to bring back the guillotine."
NeoMystic
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 12:30 PM
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Zoar---let me say that I have tremendous respect for your wide knowledge of Mormon history. As a historian of religions myself, I value your input and eagerness to fill in the blanks for the rest of us.

Perhaps you can answer a question for me, and I'll open this up.

What are Mormon doctrines on pacifism? Does the Book of Mormon or the other teachings of Smith reject violence? Clearly the history speaks otherwise, but I'm interested in doctrines more than the historical acts of flawed individuals.

--
Force and Mind are opposites; morality ends where a gun begins.
kmm122689
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 9:38 AM
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They found the girl but because the groups are so isolated they don't know which man is her husband. i'm thinking it could be years before they get the whole story
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 7:56 AM
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> President Van Buren?s reply to him was, ?Your Cause
> is just but if I were to intervene I would lose the
> vote of the State of Missouri.? Politics at work
> again.


Ouch. At least he was honest...

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Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com
zoar63
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 7:53 AM
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&
>

>
> I have two reactions to this atrocity. 1) How does a
> state governor have the authority to "exterminate"
> people? 2) How is this comparable to a NATIONWIDE
> campaign on the Federal level, to wipe out an entire
> race?
>
> Well, okay, 3. 3) That's really horrible, but it's
> not remotely comparable to what happened to the
> Native Americans.
>

> > The suffering Latter-day Saints held Governor
> Boggs
> > personally responsible for the atrocities.
>
> Why him and not Lilburn? I don't understand. From
> the story you quoted it looks like Lilburn's fault,
> not Boggs'. Either way, it's the kind of thing that
> the Feds should have put a stop to, but communication
> was slower then and probably by t
>


T,

I will agree that the government?s treatment of the Indians was horrible, but at the same time the Federal Government never stepped in to come to the aid of the Mormons in Missouri. After they were driven from the State, Joseph Smith sought redress through the courts. He even went as far as to appeal to the president of the United States who was Martin Van Buren at the time.

President Van Buren?s reply to him was, ?Your Cause is just but if I were to intervene I would lose the vote of the State of Missouri.? Politics at work again.
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Re: somewhere in texas

Apr 11, 2008 7:33 AM
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> zoar,
>

> > You seem to have forgotten about governor
> Boggs,
>
> No, I never knew about him. No offense intended, but
> I think that you and wurks assume that the entire
> world is educated about Utah.
>
> We barely know the place exists. History of Utah,
> history of polygamy, it's not taught in schools. We
> barely know who the current governor of our OWN state
> it, let alone some obscure state governor who lived
> back in the 1800's or something.
>
> For the record, I've never heard of Boggs, Lilburn,
> Ashley, Dunklin, etc...


Me either. As I've tried to explain to wurks, my knowledge of Utah before Big Love consisted of the Mormon polygamist family in "Paint your Wagon," occasional glimpses of Mormon missionaries at NYC street fairs, and a brief visit to Salt Lake City which made me intensely uncomfortable because of the heavy religious emphasis. I remember a lot of women in gingham dresses, though. (This was in the early 70s.)

--
----------------------------
Click here to see what's new in "Marion's New York," newly updated Feb. 17, 2008.
http://www.marionsnewyork.com
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