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This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
My wife posts here as El1sa and after quoting something I had told her, she informed me that someone who apparently 'speaks' for the entire board let her know that you are the only person here that EVERY POSTER considers knowledgeable about Moronism.
The followoing are some of my qualifications regarding my knowledge and experience of LDS:
I am a 6th generation Mormon, studied LDS History at BYU where I worked and researched subjects in the LDS Archives. I have copies of files that represent 25 years of research on Mormon topics. All of these files are copied from primary original source documents,
letters, diaries, minutes of meetings, etc.; Adam-God quotes from diaries, letters, journals and The St. George Temple plus over 300 quotes regarding polygamy, 400 quotes relating to The Temple Endowment, Temple Garments, Calling & Election, Book of Anointings, Book of Sealings and Adoptions, Nauvoo Temple record etc. and various esoteric Mormon topics. In addition, I have copies of diaries and letters of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Heber Kimball, D.W. Patten, Edward Partridge, William Clayton, William E. Mclellin, James Traughberg along with various letters from other early members such as John E. Page. I was instrumental in the leaking of the 1990 Temple Ceremony to the Tanners and others.
So, Zoar, what kinds of knowledge of the LDS do you have so that people here think you are to be believed and my wife to be pushed aside? I would like to get into a dialogue with you because I am 100% positive that when it comes to Moronism, at the very least, the other posters here will see with no doubt whatsoever that I have superior background & knowledge and that they will also see how foolish it is to take the word of one person who has not proved themselves other than to provide quotes from the D&C and/or BoM.
Gazelem
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 9:26 AM
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What I'm about to write here won't presume to explain all the elements of emotion I've seen on this particular post. But I hope to give those who have never been Mormon a bit of insight from my particular experience.
I read posts but rarely respond (except lately). Usually there are people who have either more recent experience with Mormonism than I, or are very adept at explaining the LDS lifestyle. I do think that a person like Zoar is important because nobody benefits from trying to understand a caricature. When I was a Mormon, most of the people I knew were like Zoar: patient, explanatory within limits, nice.
Why, though, do ex-Mormons get into the kinds of p-contests  we've seen here? It's because credibility is a big issue with how Mormons often respond to people who leave Mormonism. That puts the ex-Mormon, or the person who is critiquing Mormonism, always on the defensive because of what's said about them.
Here are two examples: A man named Dr. Charles Crane has written in a gentlemanly manner about Mormonism. Instead of sparring with him about what he said, Mormons tried to discredit his credentials.
But my own experience was even more jarring. I left Mormonism and three years later was asked by Zondervan, a major Christian publishing company, to write about why I left. During that time of research there were people from the LDS Church who monitored and reported on my actions. (Think this sounds crazy? Look here for clickable documentation from sources including the New York Times!
I thought if you left, and then were writing about it, you would be excommunicated. Wrong! I had to ask to be excommunicated. But when I called the local bishop in the city where I had been a faithful, active member for ten years, the bishop told me they had no record of me ever being a Mormon!
I was floored. Then I understood. If I had done what most ex-Mormons do -- get rid of all my books and papers, I would have had no proof. No proof, no credibility for what I wrote.
That's why ex-Mormons feel cornered sometimes into spurting out their experiences or priesthood offices or temple recommends or whatever.
I hope this helps people understand the amount of emotion we're seeing here.
Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
novelmatters.blogspot.com
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Mar 18, 2009 8:30 AM
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I'm *also* a 6th GENERATION Mormon, so shove it up your ass. My name is Steven Hamblin Lee. Ever heard of Jacob Hamblin? How about John Doyle Lee? Both my namesakes. So shove it up your ass. I left when I was 38 yo, I was in Evergreen for 12 years.
I don't care if you have a million folders stuffed FULL of Mormon LORE, it doesn't make you or anyone else a better purveyor of that asinine cult.
e
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 8:22 AM
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> My wife posts here as El1sa and after quoting
> something I had told her, she informed me that
> someone who apparently 'speaks' for the entire board
> let her know that you are the only person here that
> EVERY POSTER considers knowledgeable about Moronism.
>
Gazelem,
Both you and your wife are mistaken, to put it politely.
I'm the one who responded to her post. I do not speak for the entire board, and nobody said zoar is considered the only one knowledgeable about Mormonism.
When your wife posted with your opinions (not hers), zoar replied in his usual thoughtful, courteous manner, and I thanked him. Then I thought it would be polite to "introduce" him to El1sa and explain why I was thanking him. Nobody pushed your wife aside in any way.
A couple of weeks later, your wife came storming onto another thread complaining about my response, so I explained again. She said that she would like to see her husband debate Mormon issues with zoar, and I said yes, I thought that would be interesting. I would like to see a reasonable discussion between a current Mormon and an ex-Mormon - emphasis on "reasonable."
zoar, I apologize for having somehow triggered this by acknowledging you as the board's "resident source for all things Mormon." It was intended as a compliment and an introduction - nothing more.
By the way, Gazelem, I assume that your two references to "Moronism" in this thread's header were intended to be "Mormonism." "Moronism" is defined as the "state of being a moron."
--
Oliver Wendell Holmes:
"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."
"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."
--
Edited by Marionj2 at 03/18/2009 8:14 AM PDT
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 8:09 AM
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> rainmom - it's hard to tell whom you were addressing
> here?
> but anyway - i was just laughing at the grievances
> of the dallasdarling for the ''civil rights'' in some
> church.
> LOL
> People join the church by free will- they don't join
> the church seeking out the ''civil rights''.
You're right. People join churches because of the freedom and joy that the endless love of God provides. Many people feel that the equal love of God implies equality in front of God. (And therefore, just plain human equality.) I know nuns/ex-nuns who were jailed for protesting for civil rights in the 60s. (In habits and all!)
> I am a Catholic, not Mormon, but still- the same
> problem with the people who don't belong to
> the Mormon or the Catholic church or any church what
> t so ever ~ they want the equal rights there- male
> and female should have equal rights in churches.
> It's none of your business, don't you think,
> dallasdarling?
> Please, build your own church& religion and make it
> t all nice and equal, and be happy there!
No, but it is the business of the people who belong to those churches. As such, I am happy to support my mother in her tireless advocacy for women in the Church (my mother is a lay Benedictine), as well as many other men and women who feel that way.
There are many LDS women who also feel that the same way. I have two very dear friends who consider themselves both feminists and dedicated Mormons. They are dedicated to their faith yet also hopeful that the church organization will continue to grow and change in a more equal direction. Here's a wonderful blog by such women:
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/
(Actually, while I'm here, it's worth pointing out that not all Mormons even supported prop 8: http://forgivenessfor8.blogspot.com, http://www.lds4gaymarriage.org.)
These are dynamic organizations and not necessarily homogeneous in their beliefs and opinions. Shut up and get out is an awful answer. People can love their churches and still work for change within.
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 2:19 AM
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CALM DOWN!!!!!!!!
And yes, I meant that to be taken as a scream!
When Marion referred to Zoar as the person "the regulars" here go to for all things LDS, she was not trying to insult anyone else. And Zoar is not responsible for what someone else said about him. Over the past three years Zoar has patiently and politely answered the questions of many of us who had little or no experience with LDS. He has not chastised us for our ignorance nor accused us of of persecution. I have always felt comfortable asking him questions, which is what we have been told to do this past week...just ask... When he did not know the answer, he has told us so. He has never held himself out as anything except a practicing member of the LDS church. He has told us when our questions were not appropriate and was one of the first to tell us of his concern about HBO showing temple scenes.
Prior to this week my experiences with people of the LDS faith has been positive. Zoar has been a great part of those positive experiences.
The people I have heard from this past week have, with a few exceptions, not contributed to positive impressions of people of the LDS faith.
I know that when I hold myself out to the community as a Christian, people judge ALL Christians by my behavior and demeanor. I think that is something that some of posters here need to consider.
And apologize to Zoar, he has done nothing except provide a positive voice for the LDS on these boards for the past three years.
--
Well-behaved women rarely make history.......... Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:57 AM
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rainmom wrote:
>It's funny that you would mention "What Is >Wanted". Did you forget you're not in the temple?
> (Pay Lay Ale) Ask me what that means if you're too > young to know"
rainmom - it's hard to tell whom you were addressing here?
but anyway - i was just laughing at the grievances
of the dallasdarling for the ''civil rights'' in some church.
LOL
People join the church by free will- they don't join the church seeking out the ''civil rights''.
I am a Catholic, not Mormon, but still- the same problem with the people who don't belong to
the Mormon or the Catholic church or any church what so ever ~ they want the equal rights there- male and female should have equal rights in churches.
It's none of your business, don't you think, dallasdarling?
Please, build your own church& religion and make it all nice and equal, and be happy there!
Just let us be as we are, why is that a bother for you?
Oh, that amuses me so! 
--
4bee
--
Edited by 4bee at 03/17/2009 10:58 PM PDT
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:50 AM
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Gazalem,
1) Nobody speaks for the entire board.
2) Your confrontational attitude is unwarranted. Zoar never initiated any sort of competition with you.
You don't even seem to know what your wife said. Instead of coming in and using your expertise and credentials to back her up, and explain that she was quoting an expert, not just her husband, you instead start a whole new thread for no purpose other than to attack zoar.
For once I agree with mlfrum. A very prideful post indeed, about how important you are, and not about supporting your wife or representing your religion.
--
?Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun).?
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:48 AM
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> No you should be honest. The Relief Society (one of
> if not THE largest woman's organization on the
> planet) President is held in just as much as regard
> as the General Authorities by members of the church,
> save perhaps the prophet himself. What does power
> have to do with respect. And I would say they most
> assuredly do!!! It's called Marriage! Priesthood
> positions have more to do with responsibility than
> power.
Would that be Julie Beck? I don't get the impression that she's respected by even the majority of the faithful LDS women.
I'm serious. Have you ever read what any of the Mormon Mommy blogs have to say about her and her little talks?!?
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:44 AM
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Who am I to not?
> > Wow! And (sic) incredibly prideful post about
> all the
> > wrong things.
>
> Who are you to decide what are the "wrong things"?
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:30 AM
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No you should be honest. The Relief Society (one of if not THE largest woman's organization on the planet) President is held in just as much as regard as the General Authorities by members of the church, save perhaps the prophet himself. What does power have to do with respect. And I would say they most assuredly do!!! It's called Marriage! Priesthood positions have more to do with responsibility than power.
Women not being allowed to pray was never an official policy/doctrine. And the change was not a change so much as a correction of a tradition that had sprung up within the Church that was not correct.
>
> Milli, you should be honest. Women only hold
> 'leadership' positions in the church in women's and
> children's organizations. Women are never allowed
> any position that might imply that they held any
> power or even, opinion over a p-hood leader.
>
> And you neglected to tell the truth that even the
> church women's organization, the Relief Society, is
> presided over by p-hood men.
> And that was NOT always the case.
>
> Also, women were not allowed to pray publicly in the
> LDS church between 1967 and 1978. I remember it
> clearly. Such respect!!
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:10 AM
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> Thank you for asking this question, though it
> contains some errant assumptions... First I would
> argue that women in the Mormon Church are given more
> respect than most places. Respecting women is a key
> tenant to the faith. Women hold many leadership
> positions in the Church from the bottom up. The
> merely don't hold the priesthood. In general, women
> in the church don't feel that fact is disrespectful
> to them and man become very passionate to suggest it
> does. Roles are different but equal in importance.
> Also I think the wives of Mormon priesthood holders
> s (good and true priesthood holders anyway) have much
> more say in what goes on in their lives and decisions
> than anyone would imagine.
>
> There are both church meetings/functions that are
> only for women as well as men, even a worldwide
> woman's conference.
>
> The errant assumption then is to assume that not
> holding the priesthood makes women inferior and less
> somehow in the Church.
>
>
> > Being someone who isn't at all familiar with
> the
> > mormon religion, I enjoy reading posts on this
> board
> > from those posters who have experienced the
> religion
> > (on whatever level)
> >
> > My biggest question about this religion is why
> there
> > seems to be such a sense of family yet women
> aren't
> > given the same respect as men. They aren't
> allowed to
> > hold the same "powers" as men. They aren't
> allowed at
> > church functions that cater only to men. It's
> sad to
> > see the civil rights clock turned back 200+
> years
> > every Sunday night.
> >
> > I mention this because I'm hoping that someday,
> > someone can give me a logical answer to this
> question
> > and being that the original poster has a long
> list of
> > mormon qualifications, pehaps they'll be the one
> that
> > can finally explain this to me.
> >
> > --
> > Edited by dallasdarling at 03/17/2009 6:36 PM PDT
Milli, you should be honest. Women only hold 'leadership' positions in the church in women's and children's organizations. Women are never allowed any position that might imply that they held any power or even, opinion over a p-hood leader.
And you neglected to tell the truth that even the church women's organization, the Relief Society, is presided over by p-hood men.
And that was NOT always the case.
Also, women were not allowed to pray publicly in the LDS church between 1967 and 1978. I remember it clearly. Such respect!!
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:04 AM
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> Wow! And (sic) incredibly prideful post about all the
> wrong things.
Who are you to decide what are the "wrong things"?
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 1:00 AM
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> Dallasdarling wrote:
>
> > My biggest question about this religion is why
> there
> > seems to be such a sense of family yet women
> aren't
> > given the same respect as men.
>
> LOL- Dallas- they are given respect- but why should
> the women be given the SAME respect ?
> They are respected as women, should they be respected
> as men?
>
>
> &They aren't allowed to
> > hold the same "powers" as men. They aren't
> allowed at
> > church functions that cater only to men. It's
> sad to
> > see the civil rights clock turned back
> 200+ years
> > every Sunday night.
>
> What ones church and religion has to do with civil
> rights?
> Do you wish to insert your sense of ''civil rights''
> to ones church?
> You may and must choose the church to your liking-
> where there are priestesses etc. - you have your
> choice, ~ perhaps that would make you wanting to
> leave the others alone with your ''civil rights''
> sadness
>
>
>
> > pehaps they'll be the one that
> > can finally explain this to me.
>
> Lol- when & if~ should you learn the the meaning
> and difference of civil rights and religious
> structures and establishments- churches, synagogues,
> temples, mosques etc.~ perhaps then one could try
> listening to you, with an intention of helping you-
> what it really was that you wanted?
>
> --
> 4bee
It's funny that you would mention "What Is Wanted". Did you forget you're not in the temple?
(Pay Lay Ale) Ask me what that means if you're too young to know.
Again, we have a mormon priesthood holder condescending to explain to a mere woman her foolishness at asking a question regarding 'mormon family'.
So, Dallasdarling, IMHO and IMH observation, after many decades in Utah and mormonism; women are respected in the LDS as mothers/wives. That is their purpose as 'daughters of god'. It is the only important role for women.
Their 'priesthood husband' with the magic power will receive 'revelation' for the family. The warm fuzzies in his tummy will show that the 'revelation' is true just as those fuzzies confirm that the mormon church is 'true'.
The temple-married wife will be called out of her grave by her p-hood husband; by her new 'temple name'. She does not get to know his new 'temple name'. Why would she need to? She has no p-hood responsibilites or opinions.
The LDS church has little, to nothing, to offer a woman who prefers to have another focus in her life. If she is encouraged to 'get an education' it is only as a back-up in case disaster strikes the family. It is not encouraged as a path for a woman's actual interests.
Of course, I've been labeled a lying, crazy, misinformed Ahlzheimer's victim for making these statements.
--
Edited by rainmom at 03/17/2009 10:03 PM PDT
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 12:45 AM
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Thank you for asking this question, though it contains some errant assumptions... First I would argue that women in the Mormon Church are given more respect than most places. Respecting women is a key tenant to the faith. Women hold many leadership positions in the Church from the bottom up. The merely don't hold the priesthood. In general, women in the church don't feel that fact is disrespectful to them and man become very passionate to suggest it does. Roles are different but equal in importance. Also I think the wives of Mormon priesthood holders (good and true priesthood holders anyway) have much more say in what goes on in their lives and decisions than anyone would imagine.
There are both church meetings/functions that are only for women as well as men, even a worldwide woman's conference.
The errant assumption then is to assume that not holding the priesthood makes women inferior and less somehow in the Church.
> Being someone who isn't at all familiar with the
> mormon religion, I enjoy reading posts on this board
> from those posters who have experienced the religion
> (on whatever level)
>
> My biggest question about this religion is why there
> seems to be such a sense of family yet women aren't
> given the same respect as men. They aren't allowed to
> hold the same "powers" as men. They aren't allowed at
> church functions that cater only to men. It's sad to
> see the civil rights clock turned back 200+ years
> every Sunday night.
>
> I mention this because I'm hoping that someday,
> someone can give me a logical answer to this question
> and being that the original poster has a long list of
> mormon qualifications, pehaps they'll be the one that
> can finally explain this to me.
>
> --
> Edited by dallasdarling at 03/17/2009 6:36 PM PDT
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Re: For Zoar, The Only One Here With Knowledge of All things LDS
Mar 18, 2009 12:32 AM
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Wow! And incredibly prideful post about all the wrong things.
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