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For discussions other than boxing...or in addition to!
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Posts:
9
Registered:
9/23/09
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(19614 of 19704)
Sep 23, 2009 2:53 AM
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i couldn't agree with that article anymore than i do...if fighters want to move up in weight class and want to prove that they have what it takes to fight the champs of that division...then they NEED to fight them IN their NATURAL weight...i honestly DON'T understand how cotto's title could be on the line if he HAS to weigh in at 145...that's EXTREMELY unfair to someone who fought TRUE welteweights for that belt...
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Posts:
2,005
Registered:
10/4/07
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(19613 of 19704)
Sep 23, 2009 1:20 AM
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hey, that was a copy and paste from www.boxingtalk.com-but I do feel the same as the writer of the article does.
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Posts:
2,107
Registered:
11/11/04
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(19612 of 19704)
Sep 23, 2009 1:02 AM
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Good article Mann
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Posts:
2,005
Registered:
10/4/07
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(19611 of 19704)
Sep 23, 2009 12:32 AM
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Immediately following Floyd Mayweather, Jr?s dominant victory over WBO lightweight champion Juan Manuel Marquez, HBO analyst Max Kellerman proceeded to ask the question that is on every boxing fan?s mind, ?why didn?t Mayweather honor the catchweight agreement?? Before a suitable answer could be pried out of Mayweather the interview came to a screeching halt courtesy of an unexpected bumrush by Shane Mosley and Bernard Hopkins. Though Mayweather has received much criticism for weighing in at 146, two pounds above the 144 lb agreement, is it possible that his failure to make weight may have a positive impact on the sport?
Why are catchweights a part of boxing? In an era where boxing fans have become disillusioned with the high number of title belts, sanctioning bodies, and weight classes previously established, the sport adds yet another oddity called the catchweight. Though the concept of catchweights have been a part of boxing for quite sometime this year has seen it grow into an infamous topic which has dominated headlines and soured the two most high profile fights of the year, Mayweather-Marquez and Pacquiao-Cotto. Simply put, in 2009, when we are talking about catchweights, we are talking about multi-division champions Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez. No disrespect to either of these great champions but weight classes, as Emmanuel Steward pointed out during last weekend?s telecast, ?where established for a reason,? to even the playing field by matching fighters of natural size and weight. The catchweight concept however defies this logic and is specifically designed to cripple the natural weight and abilities of one fighter while augmenting the other.
It seems that the current catchweight phenomena can easily be traced to Manny Pacquiao?s one sided drubbing of Oscar De La Hoya in December 2008. Though this fight did not take place at a so-called catchweight, De La Hoya was required to drain from the junior middleweight limit of 154 where he has campaigned for many years, and down to the welterweight limit of 147 to face Pacquiao who moved up from lightweight to take the challenge. Oscar, to his detriment, would weigh in at 145 lbs and suffer the worse and perhaps final loss of his storied career. Following this victory, Pacquiao?s trainer Freddie Roach, feeling like a genius, decided that catchweights would be their way of gaining an advantage over the bigger and more popular welterweight titlists who represent big money opportunities for his fighter. Not to be undone, Pacquiao?s arch rival Juan Manuel Marquez, clearly wanting to make his own statement at welterweight, used the catchweight theory in an effort to outflank Floyd Mayweather Jr., who prior to retiring from the sport was universally regarded as the best pound-for-pound fighter in boxing.
Mayweather, long considered a small welterweight who could easily make the catchweight agreement of 144, shocked the boxing world when he weighed in this past weekend at 146. Typically when a fighter fails to make weight they will be given an opportunity to burn off the extra pounds and step on the scales again. Mayweather, unexpectedly, opted to take a financial penalty rather than lose a few pounds. As a result, he weighed in as a true welterweight and fought as a true welterweight. In what looks like pure arrogance and stacking the deck against Marquez perhaps Mayweather by chance has made a powerful statement regarding catchweights; Catchweights are not a weight class! In retrospect, it is possible that his blunder may have a lasting impact on the sport. It would come as no surprise if more fighters expected to make catchweights simply opts to take a financial hit rather than risk a meltdown like that suffered by Oscar De La Hoya.
Mayweather?s failure to make weight will almost certainly affect the upcoming Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto fight. Like Mayweather-Marquez, this fight is also based on a catchweight. Cotto is expected to have an even tougher time making the agreed weight of 145. If Mayweather can ignore the catchweight then surely Cotto can as well. In fact it may be wise for Cotto to come in at 147 considering he is a naturally big welterweight who has often been stunned and hurt when fighting in a lighter division. Why help Pacquiao defeat you by coming in dehydrated and weak? In my opinion, if a fighter can not handle welterweight, then do not fight in the division. The limit is 147 and there is no need to change, augment, or ignore this fact. After all, in addition to the traditional weight divisions in boxing there is also ?junior? and ?super? weight classes placed in between. Certainly Marquez and Pacquiao could find great fights at 140, junior middleweight titlists Tim Bradley and Devon Alexander would love a shot at either of them.
How can the boxing community find fault with a welterweight weighing in as a welterweight? Neither Mayweather nor Cotto required the aid of catchweights as they moved up and contrary to what Freddie Roach may think, catchweights are not slick, smart, or genius; in reality it is a sign of weakness. Fighters looking for a challenge at higher weights should enter divisions just as fighters did in the past, with dignity. There is no greater honor than beating a world class fighter at his best, not his dehydrated worse.
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Posts:
7,632
Registered:
5/18/07
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(19610 of 19704)
Sep 18, 2009 6:56 PM
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I think he beats Williams if they fight.
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Posts:
9,284
Registered:
5/28/08
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(19609 of 19704)
Sep 18, 2009 9:00 AM
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> Well the rematch with Taylor was at 168....no title
> at stake....Lockett and Rubio were manditories.
> At first I liked his management because they didn't
> baby him and put him right in there with the
> division's
> best. Now my worst fears are confirmed in that he's
> become a white cash cow that they don't want to
> risk in anything but mega-payday fights.
>
> I would have put him right in with Abraham, who
> made the effort to come stateside to fight Miranda
> in their rematch so as to get exposer to a stateside
>
> audience. Abraham is there to be hit....It would have
>
> been a fan-friendly brawl !
>
> If his handlers are worried about losing out on the
> big paydays, then might I suggest keeping him out
> of bar-fights where he risks suffering a
> life-crippling
> injury for no money whatsoever.
>
> I'm off this guy's fan wagon until I see him step up,
>
> win or lose.
I think that Pavlik had a great 2008. I mean, you can't argue with the TJ rematch or the B-Hop fights. No, they weren't for a "title", but who cares? They were great matchups.
2009 is when Pavlik has gone downhill. He's done absolutely nothing this year. I didn't have a problem with the Rubio fight, because he was coming off a devastating first loss. But when they announced he was gonna fight Mora, that's when I kinda raised my eyebrows. I glad that fight didn't happend, because it would have been a waste of time.
Then, they announce the fight with Williams. Everyone gets all excited about the fight, and then Pavlik is hurt again. He did the same thing with the Mora fight, and it was eventually cancelled. I surely hope that doesn't happend with this one. If he fights Williams, he will have had a decent 2009. If he doesn't, and this fight is eventually cancelled, its time to seriously question what Team Pavlik is doing.
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Posts:
7,632
Registered:
5/18/07
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(19608 of 19704)
Sep 17, 2009 10:35 PM
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> > > I can't help but think that the very first
> > > time Pavlik connects cleanly that fight
> > > will be over & all of HBO's time and
> > > money trying to hype up Williams
> > > will have been wasted.
> >
> > First they would have to actually fight and
> > there is a question as to whether or not
> > Pavlik wants in the ring with any legitimate
> > middleweight contender since he has never
> > yet defended his WBC title against
> > one in the two years that he's held his title.
>
> His reign didn't start out bad Jim, but its getting
> there. After stopping JT for the title, he's fought
> a rematch with JT and a superfight with B-Hop. Other
> than that, he's been in with gimmies in Lockett and
> Rubio. If he fights Williams, he's back on track.
> If he doesn't manage to get in there with Williams,
> , and comes back with another Lockett-Rubio type
> opponent, we'll have something to rant about.
Well the rematch with Taylor was at 168....no title
at stake....Lockett and Rubio were manditories.
At first I liked his management because they didn't
baby him and put him right in there with the division's
best. Now my worst fears are confirmed in that he's
become a white cash cow that they don't want to
risk in anything but mega-payday fights.
I would have put him right in with Abraham, who
made the effort to come stateside to fight Miranda
in their rematch so as to get exposer to a stateside
audience. Abraham is there to be hit....It would have
been a fan-friendly brawl !
If his handlers are worried about losing out on the
big paydays, then might I suggest keeping him out
of bar-fights where he risks suffering a life-crippling
injury for no money whatsoever.
I'm off this guy's fan wagon until I see him step up,
win or lose.
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Posts:
9,284
Registered:
5/28/08
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(19607 of 19704)
Sep 17, 2009 6:00 PM
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> > I can't help but think that the very first time
> > Pavlik connects cleanly that fight will be over
> & all
> > of HBO's time and money trying to hype up
> Williams
> > will have been wasted.
>
> First they would have to actually fight and there is
>
> a question as to whether or not Pavlik wants in
> the ring with any legitimate middleweight contender
> since he has never yet defended his WBC title against
>
> one in the two years that he's held his title.
His reign didn't start out bad Jim, but its getting there. After stopping JT for the title, he's fought a rematch with JT and a superfight with B-Hop. Other than that, he's been in with gimmies in Lockett and Rubio. If he fights Williams, he's back on track. If he doesn't manage to get in there with Williams, and comes back with another Lockett-Rubio type opponent, we'll have something to rant about.
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Posts:
295
Registered:
12/3/07
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(19606 of 19704)
Sep 17, 2009 5:45 PM
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this fight could turn out like the chavez/taylor fight.
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Posts:
7,632
Registered:
5/18/07
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(19605 of 19704)
Sep 14, 2009 11:19 PM
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> I can't help but think that the very first time
> Pavlik connects cleanly that fight will be over & all
> of HBO's time and money trying to hype up Williams
> will have been wasted.
First they would have to actually fight and there is
a question as to whether or not Pavlik wants in
the ring with any legitimate middleweight contender
since he has never yet defended his WBC title against
one in the two years that he's held his title.
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Posts:
744
Registered:
5/13/06
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(19604 of 19704)
Sep 14, 2009 1:42 PM
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Yep when Floyd does win all Floyd haters are gonna say so what he beat a smaller guy.
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Posts:
457
Registered:
5/24/06
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(19603 of 19704)
Sep 13, 2009 2:49 AM
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> > bottom line is im gonna buy cotto/pac and watch
> > may/mar on replay. marquez is gonna win hands
> down
> > but mayweather is gonna try to stink it up. u
> can
> > take that to the bank.
>
> I am really looking forward to this fight and to hear
> all the excuses when Floyd wins this fight. Marquez
> may be able to turn this boxing match into a fight,
> and to his dismay that will be his downfall. If FLoyd
> has to he will actually fight when potshotting is not
> working and when he actually is forced to throwdown
> is when he is most dangerous because of his speed,
> power, and defensive skills. Making FLoyd brawl is
> not the answer. What is?? Noone knows cause noone has
> beaten him....
That's funny, Floyd is the HEAVY favorite to win this fight, not the other way around. He is bigger and stronger than Marquez.
Generally speaking most guys that have fought PBF have pointed to his fight against Castillo for a game plan. Marquez is a much smarter, more skilled fighter than Castillo, but he might just be too small. I still think he can pull out the upset, but it would be an UPSET. He is the underdog in that fight.
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Posts:
2,005
Registered:
10/4/07
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(19602 of 19704)
Sep 12, 2009 2:28 PM
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EMANUEL STEWARD: COTTO WILL BEAT PACQUIAO
By John Martinez
?This is not going to be a cakewalk for Manny. Cotto throws a lot of jabs that are targeted to disrupt rhythm and timing.?
WBO welterweight champion, Miguel Cotto and Manny Pacquiao, the consensus pound-for-pound champion, are set to square off on November 14th in Las Vegas. The fight is a must-see for boxing fans and a must-happen for the sake of sport itself because it helps strengthen the sweet science community as a whole and brings casual fans into the fold. Many people think that Pacquiao, the Filipino bomber will walk through Cotto, the Puerto Rican who perhaprs has been in too many wars. I disagree and believe Cotto will emerge victorious on November 14th. The task won?t be easy, but it will get done. I spoke with Hall Of Fame trainer Emmanuel Steward, who also predicts a Cotto win. ?John, you and me are either gonna look like geniuses or fools, but I got a feeling that though we are in the minority, we will be every gambler?s dream that night that listened to us,? said Steward. ?This is not going to be a cakewalk for Manny. Cotto throws a lot of jabs that are targeted to disrupt rhythm and timing,? he continued, ? and he hits very hard and has elusive hand speed too.?
In this writer's opinion, Cotto cannot backpedal against Pacquiao. He must take the fight to him behind a double or triple jab. The jab cannot be a ramrod jab; it needs to be more of a ?punch at the target rather than through the target? jab.
Should Cotto push Manny into the ropes or pin him in the corner, Cotto can fall into his usual trap of admiring his work and patiently looking for openings once his prey has fallen into his web.
As soon as Manny?s back is pinned on the ropes or in the corner, Cotto needs to go to work.
It is no secret that Manny Pacquiao has three glaring weaknesses in his game.
The first, Pacquiao generally has no head movement to speak of. His head is very stationary for a man of his pillar. He is very easy to hit. Ask Juan Marquez and Erik Morales if this is true.
The problem there was that neither man had the physical ability to make that punch ?stick?. Cotto is a different beast when it comes to punching power. He is physically larger and might weigh 10-17 pounds heavier than Pacquiao on fight night.
The second weakness that Manny possesses is an inability to stop an uppercut. Manny tends to leave his hands mid chest level and relies on cat like reflexes to counter this punch. Cotto will not be intimidated. He will land the uppercut at will.
Steward presents the third weakness. He said, ?when Manny throws his lead left hand, he is always out of balance. He overextends the punch and falls over his lead right foot. This is not good when it comes to fighting a guy like Cotto. Miguel will half step and counter with an uppercut or a lead right hand. Cotto is going to push Manny backward. He is going to punish Manny with pressure, weight, size, and punching power.?
The major problem with Cotto's style is his fighting stance. How can a decorated amateur (he was a 2000 Olympian) and an outstanding professional champion get away with holding his gloves next to his ears and leaning over his lead foot? Somehow, this tactic has worked for Cotto, but it won?t work for long. Steward agreed with my assessment and said, ?It is unbelievable to me how Cotto has gotten away with that for so long.?
?I can?t stand to see him (Cotto) in that stance. That stance leaves him wide open for uppercuts and if you?re facing Manny, you?d better correct that gloves on the ear thing that you?re used to doing cause it may land you in trouble on that night,? he said.
For the record, I loathe catchweights. To me, if a ?fighter? calls out a champion at a higher weight class, then meet that champion at his weight class. Catchweights are meaningless. Don?t issue a half-ass challenge. You call someone out, and then whoop their ass at the weight that they campaigned at and won a title in. Plain and simple. Its like picking on a guy that you know has been weakened somehow and you beat him. The question is simple. Did you really beat your foe or did you beat a shell or percentage of your enemy?
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Posts:
744
Registered:
5/13/06
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(19601 of 19704)
Sep 12, 2009 9:41 AM
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> bottom line is im gonna buy cotto/pac and watch
> may/mar on replay. marquez is gonna win hands down
> but mayweather is gonna try to stink it up. u can
> take that to the bank.
I am really looking forward to this fight and to hear all the excuses when Floyd wins this fight. Marquez may be able to turn this boxing match into a fight, and to his dismay that will be his downfall. If FLoyd has to he will actually fight when potshotting is not working and when he actually is forced to throwdown is when he is most dangerous because of his speed, power, and defensive skills. Making FLoyd brawl is not the answer. What is?? Noone knows cause noone has beaten him....
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Posts:
126
Registered:
7/24/09
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(19600 of 19704)
Sep 11, 2009 4:42 PM
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i agree drovey. williams on a few occasions was not hurt but stunned by quintana. williams even admitted it. so hows his chin gonna hold up against pavlik who hits like a light heavy? williams throws like a gozillion punches per round, but theres nothing on them. remember pavy went toe to toe with miranda. and i'm not saying eddy has the skills of williams but he dang sure hit alot harder. and pavy took all of eddy'd punches then delivered his. williams likes to come forward and that plays right into kelly's hands. but i think pavy will go to williams and make him fight backing up. i just don't see williams standing up to pavy's power for 12 rounds.
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