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Do you think a Pacquiao loss will hurt boxing? I was just thinking that it would probably be a negative in the sport. If you look at how much attention his fight against De La Hoya and Hatton brought and how Pacquiao is looked at as the P4P best right now. A loss to Cotto might derail the momentum created in the sport. I could be wrong but I'd like to know what the board thinks.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 2:07 PM
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> Thats where youre wrong. Morales wasnt 1-6 in his
> last six fights when Manny fought him. He was one in
> six after he fought Diaz. Two of those losses were to
> Manny.
>
> To date Ive never picked against Floyd. Not even
> once. I think he needs to fight guys who present a
> bigger challenge. I'm not alone there. I called it
> before the Oscar fight that Oscar was washed up and
> Floyd shoulda handled him the way Manny did. He
> couldnt put Oscar away. Same with Hatton. I always
> thought Hatton sucked and Floyd shoulda been able to
> do what Manny did. He couldnt. The fact that Manny is
> moving up to fight these bigger guys and beating them
> the way that he has done it particulary seeing these
> guys had some level of success with Floyd makes them
> big win. Real big wins. He coulda stepped up to JrWW
> and WW and fought scrubs. He fought some decent guys
> whether you wanna give him credit for that or not.
> When he beats Cotto people will be saying that Tony
> took all the fight out of him.
Gun, Morales lost the Barerra rubber match. Then, he beat Pac. After that, he was outclassed by Raheem. After that came the two losses to Pac, followed by the lost to david Diaz in his last fight. Here's his record on boxrec.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=5065&cat=boxer
As for Mayweather and Pac's victories over de la Hoya and Hatton, they are different types of fighters. Mayweather takes his time, breaks down his opponent, and if the KO is there he'll go for it. If he can't get the KO without putting himself in harm's way, he's perfectly happy to simply outclass his opponent for 12 rounds. Pac goes balls-to-the-wall from the word go. Mayweather beat de la Hoya and Hatton just as easily as Pac did. And he probably beat better versions of both. Mayweather was also clearly better against Marquez. However, Pac probably fought a better version of Marquez. That's why I say against common opponents, its pretty much a push. Pac's accomplishments are only better in your mind because you admire him and despise Mayweather. Just admit it and move on.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 1:49 PM
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> And I never said Barerra was a bum. I call the first
> Barerra fight Pac's best win. But, I'm not gonna
> ignore that Morales was 1-5 in his last six fights.
> And he had losses to a C class fighters wrapped
> d around Pac's wins over him just becasue I like Pac
> as fighter.
Thats where youre wrong. Morales wasnt 1-6 in his last six fights when Manny fought him. He was one in six after he fought Diaz. Two of those losses were to Manny.
To date Ive never picked against Floyd. Not even once. I think he needs to fight guys who present a bigger challenge. I'm not alone there. I called it before the Oscar fight that Oscar was washed up and Floyd shoulda handled him the way Manny did. He couldnt put Oscar away. Same with Hatton. I always thought Hatton sucked and Floyd shoulda been able to do what Manny did. He couldnt. The fact that Manny is moving up to fight these bigger guys and beating them the way that he has done it particulary seeing these guys had some level of success with Floyd makes them big win. Real big wins. He coulda stepped up to JrWW and WW and fought scrubs. He fought some decent guys whether you wanna give him credit for that or not. When he beats Cotto people will be saying that Tony took all the fight out of him.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 1:37 PM
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> Hit - I gotcha. All Mayweather's wins are great and
> all Manny's suck. Barrera was not a bum dude. He was
> the only guy to beat Morales prior to Manny fighting
> him the first time. Raheem didnt put a beat down on
> Morales either. So the notion that Morales was some
> how wore out all of a sudden is bullshit.
>
> --
> Edited by GunRunner2 at 11/13/2009 10:29 AM PST
Gun, the difference between you and I is that I'm a fan of both fighters. Therefore, I'm able to view the Mayweather-Pacquaio debate unbiasedly. Like you rave over Pac's recent wins and criticize Mayweather's. Well Gun, excluding david Diaz, Mayweather and Pac have the exact same opponents in their last three fights. OK, Pac moved up to fight de la Hoya and Hatton, and fought Marquez at 130. What does that mean? Mayweather moved up to fight de la Hoya and Mayweather beat better versions of de la Hoya and Hatton, where Pac probably beat a better version of Marquez. These two cats are very much on a equal playing field recently.
And I never said Barerra was a bum. I call the first Barerra fight Pac's best win. But, I'm not gonna ignore that Morales was 1-5 in his last six fights. And he had losses to a C class fighters wrapped around Pac's wins over him just becasue I like Pac as fighter.
I'm just pointing out to you that you criticize one fighter for one thing and praise another for doign the exact same thing. You also defend Pavlik, who has been a joke of champion. You criticize Mayweather's welterweight run. What about Pavlik's middleweight run? He's fought Lockett, Rubio, and now Espino. Please.
And why haven't you responded to my point over in the other threadwhen I pointed out the numerous top fighters that Pac has bypassed on his way up the scale?
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 1:28 PM
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Hit - I gotcha. All Mayweather's wins are great and all Manny's suck. Barrera was not a bum dude. He was the only guy to beat Morales prior to Manny fighting him the first time. Raheem didnt put a beat down on Morales either. So the notion that Morales was some how wore out all of a sudden is bullshit.
--
Edited by GunRunner2 at 11/13/2009 10:29 AM PST
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 1:20 PM
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> Yeah. Im not the one whose biased. Manny fought
> Morales when he had two losses. Both to Barrera.
> Morales fought a sucky fight with Raheem but no way
> was he used up when the fought the second two times.
> Diaz was after that.
>
> Hatton was the number one ranked guy at JrWW. I never
> did like Hatton and thought he shoulda been beat a
> long time ago but he was still the number one guy.
> His one loss to Floyd is nothing compared to the ten
> losses that Baldomir had when Floyd fought him.
> People wanna use the excuse that Oscar was weight
> drained when he fought Manny but thats after the
> fact. He was still a huge a favorite going into the
> fight.
> If that win had been a fluke for Manny I would buy
> into the weight drain thing but he fucking schooled
> Hatton after that. And if he does the same to Cotto
> like I think he will its gonna make those wins even
> more relevant cuz it means that Manny is moving up,
> taking bigger challenges and manhandling guys that
> were expected to beat him.
Pac's wins over Morales are good, but far from great wins. You can make all the excuses in the world. But the fact is, Morales was losing to bums when Pac was beating him.
As for Pac moving up, I think you put too much stock in moving up in weight, where it comes to Pac. Go back and watch Mayweather-de la Hoya. If you can find more than 2 or 3 rounds to give de la Hoya, you don't know boxing. And Mayweather fought a much better version of de la Hoya than Pac did. Mayweather KO'd an undefeated Hatton. You say he picked on a smaller fighter. But the fact is, Mayweather started at 130, Hatton is a career 140 lber. And going into that fight, Hatton was thought to be the naturally bigger and stronger fighter. And al that is basically irrelevant. Mayweather and Pacquaio are doing the exact smae thing. If Clottey had gotten the decision against Cotto, would Pac have for him, hell no. Whether you want to believe it or not, Pac ducked a third fight with Marquez. Everyone is doing the same sh*t. Why is Mosley fighting Berto instead of Williams or Clottey? You and your squirrel friends only manage to see who Mayweather isn't fighting when the majority of the people in the sport are doing the same sh*t. And on top of all that, you have to nerve to criticize Mayweather's competition, yet defend Pavlik who has been busy fighting tomato can after tomato can, while claiming he's half dead when its tiem to fight a real opponent. Whether you want to believe it or not, you're a hater Gun.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 1:03 PM
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> > Hatton and Oscar were pretty good wins for a
> guy
> > moving up. He could took an easier route. Hatton
> was
> > still the number one guy at 140 and he was a
> serious
> > underdog in the Oscar fight. His win over
> Barrera was
> > huge. Both of them were. But imo the Morales
> trilogy
> > shows Manny's progression as a fighter. He was
> cut in
> > the first fight and fought til the end with his
> > vision obscured. His second and third fights
> were
> > clear convincing wins over a fighter who still
> had
> > plenty in the tank.
>
> In Erik Morales's last six fights he won one, and
> that was the first matchup with Pac. And two of
> those five losses were to Zahir Raheem and David
> Diaz. Pac beat, and most likely lost to, a shell of
> Morales.
>
> As for his wins over Hatton and de la Hoya, they were
> good wins, but him moving up is irrelevant. De la
> Hoya size was completely irrelevant because he had to
> make 147 for the first time in nearly a decade. And
> quite frankly, he got beaten up a little in his
> previous fight to an old Steve Forbes. Hatton was
> nearly KO'd by Juan Lazcano. Personally, I don't put
> a lot of stock in those wins.
Yeah. Im not the one whose biased. Manny fought Morales when he had two losses. Both to Barrera. Morales fought a sucky fight with Raheem but no way was he used up when the fought the second two times. Diaz was after that.
Hatton was the number one ranked guy at JrWW. I never did like Hatton and thought he shoulda been beat a long time ago but he was still the number one guy. His one loss to Floyd is nothing compared to the ten losses that Baldomir had when Floyd fought him.
People wanna use the excuse that Oscar was weight drained when he fought Manny but thats after the fact. He was still a huge a favorite going into the fight.
If that win had been a fluke for Manny I would buy into the weight drain thing but he fucking schooled Hatton after that. And if he does the same to Cotto like I think he will its gonna make those wins even more relevant cuz it means that Manny is moving up, taking bigger challenges and manhandling guys that were expected to beat him.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 12:51 PM
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> Hatton and Oscar were pretty good wins for a guy
> moving up. He could took an easier route. Hatton was
> still the number one guy at 140 and he was a serious
> underdog in the Oscar fight. His win over Barrera was
> huge. Both of them were. But imo the Morales trilogy
> shows Manny's progression as a fighter. He was cut in
> the first fight and fought til the end with his
> vision obscured. His second and third fights were
> clear convincing wins over a fighter who still had
> plenty in the tank.
In Erik Morales's last six fights he won one, and that was the first matchup with Pac. And two of those five losses were to Zahir Raheem and David Diaz. Pac beat, and most likely lost to, a shell of Morales.
As for his wins over Hatton and de la Hoya, they were good wins, but him moving up is irrelevant. De la Hoya size was completely irrelevant because he had to make 147 for the first time in nearly a decade. And quite frankly, he got beaten up a little in his previous fight to an old Steve Forbes. Hatton was nearly KO'd by Juan Lazcano. Personally, I don't put a lot of stock in those wins.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 12:45 PM
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> > Good points Hit. Manny gets discredited for his
> > biggest wins. Not sure why that is.
>
> De la Hoya and Hatton are not Pac's biggest wins.
> They are simply his most notable wins from the
> e mainstream's POV. I feel his biggest win is the
> first Barerra fight. I thought he should have gotten
> the decision in the first Marquez fight, but I
> thought he was outpointed in the rematch. Now, I
> don't give him a lot of props for the Morales wins
> because he beat a shell of Morales. Morales was
> outclassed by Zahir Raheem in his fight before the
> rematch and rubber match with Pac.
Hatton and Oscar were pretty good wins for a guy moving up. He could took an easier route. Hatton was still the number one guy at 140 and he was a serious underdog in the Oscar fight. His win over Barrera was huge. Both of them were. But imo the Morales trilogy shows Manny's progression as a fighter. He was cut in the first fight and fought til the end with his vision obscured. His second and third fights were clear convincing wins over a fighter who still had plenty in the tank.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 12:38 PM
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> Good points Hit. Manny gets discredited for his
> biggest wins. Not sure why that is.
De la Hoya and Hatton are not Pac's biggest wins. They are simply his most notable wins from the mainstream's POV. I feel his biggest win is the first Barerra fight. I thought he should have gotten the decision in the first Marquez fight, but I thought he was outpointed in the rematch. Now, I don't give him a lot of props for the Morales wins because he beat a shell of Morales. Morales was outclassed by Zahir Raheem in his fight before the rematch and rubber match with Pac.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 12:34 PM
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> Yeah, and I would say Pac's wins over Barerra,
> Morales, and Marquez are greater than Cotto's wins
> over an average Clottey, Judah that hadn't won a
> fight in the previous two years to fighting Cotto,
> and an old Mosley that came into that fight 7-4 with
> a NC in his previous 12 fights.
Good points Hit. Manny gets discredited for his biggest wins. Not sure why that is.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 11:06 AM
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> Hit---One of us is obviously going to be wrong,
> tomorrow nite. Cotto may have struggled but he has
> managed to pull out a win against Clottey, Judah and
> Mosley. Those three wins are greater than a drained
> DLH, overrated Hatton and an average David Diaz.
Yeah, and I would say Pac's wins over Barerra, Morales, and Marquez are greater than Cotto's wins over an average Clottey, Judah that hadn't won a fight in the previous two years to fighting Cotto, and an old Mosley that came into that fight 7-4 with a NC in his previous 12 fights.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 11:03 AM
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Hit---One of us is obviously going to be wrong, tomorrow nite. Cotto may have struggled but he has managed to pull out a win against Clottey, Judah and Mosley. Those three wins are greater than a drained DLH, overrated Hatton and an average David Diaz.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 10:40 AM
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> You know what your 4gettn Hitking, Margarito and
> Clotty are way tougher fights than Oscar and Hatton.
> Still all that means little-but why give Cotto slack
> k for fighting to the finish line with a fighter like
> Clotty-dude can throw a quick 4 punch combination
> with all four punches being the left-let's see he
> caught Cotto with the left jab-2 quick left upper
> cutts followed by a left hook and the shit was so so
> sweet. Cotto had to fight a fighter with not just
> damn good offence but a tight as defence with a bad
> ass cut on top of that. Cotto is tough and we 4get
> that all he is is a fighter-he doesn't want to do
> anything else but fight and I respect this guy so
> much. From the way he talks he doesn't seem to have
> the full backn of PR behind him. I'm glad to see
> that Tito step out and picked him to win-even if he
> thinks Pac will win-he came out and said Cotto will
> win this fight. Cotto has showned he can turn a
> fight around quite a few times-but what about
> Pac-thats the question. I got Cotto by way of KO
Answer me this homie. If Cotto wasn't able to get outta the way of Margartio and Clottey's punches, how the hell is he gonna get outta the way of Pac's?
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 10:39 AM
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> Hit---You're talking to the wrong person. I'm a
> student of the sweet science. I know about fighters.
> I grew up with a father, who was a boxer for the
> e Catholic Charities in Chicago.
>
> You know that Cotto has only one loss. It seems that
> you enjoy shitting on him, whenever you get the
> chance but when it comes to your boy Mayweather, he
> can't do no wrong. yOU remind me of a defense lawyer,
> who's client is quilty as hell but continues on
> saying that he's a law abiding citizen. Get real man.
Cotto is what he is. I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong on this one. But like I've said, I've seen Cotto struggle with fighters not nearly as good as Pac. If Pac and Cotto were the same size, this would be a laughable mismatch. Size matters, but not when there's this big a gap in talent and class.
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Re: If Pacquiao happens to lose to Cotto
Nov 13, 2009 10:34 AM
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You know what your 4gettn Hitking, Margarito and Clotty are way tougher fights than Oscar and Hatton. Still all that means little-but why give Cotto slack for fighting to the finish line with a fighter like Clotty-dude can throw a quick 4 punch combination with all four punches being the left-let's see he caught Cotto with the left jab-2 quick left upper cutts followed by a left hook and the shit was so so sweet. Cotto had to fight a fighter with not just damn good offence but a tight as defence with a bad ass cut on top of that. Cotto is tough and we 4get that all he is is a fighter-he doesn't want to do anything else but fight and I respect this guy so much. From the way he talks he doesn't seem to have the full backn of PR behind him. I'm glad to see that Tito step out and picked him to win-even if he thinks Pac will win-he came out and said Cotto will win this fight. Cotto has showned he can turn a fight around quite a few times-but what about Pac-thats the question. I got Cotto by way of KO
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