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With all the recent talk about great heavyweights recently, I noticed one name and to me was a glaring omission. I wouldn?t be me if I didn?t have something to say leading up to this moment. Some guys have bad days. Some have bad vibes. This dude was simply a bad motherf@cker. When a young Cassius Clay shouted, ? I shook up the world ?, it was because he had rid the boxing world of a notorious champion. Charles ?Sonny? Liston. With all due respect to Muhammad Ali, this was not a mega fight because of him. The world tuned in and was ready to see what kind of damage Liston would inflict on the young 22 year old challenger. Many heavyweights were afraid to fight Liston and hoped Ali would win so they could beat him. Little did they know the title that changed hands in 1964 went from a great champion, to the greatest of all champions. With his reputation ruined by a so-called phantom punch, he remains one of the toughest guys in heavyweight history. Without a doubt . How does Liston match up with the All Time Greats ?
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(44 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 2:26 PM
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As good as Rocky Marciano was, he may have also been the smartest man to ever hold the heavyweight title. While I believe that his most impressive title defense was his sixth and last one versus Archie Moore, I also feel that had he continued his career, "The Rock" would have had a difficult time coping with the speed of Floyd Patterson and the numbing power of Sonny Liston. In my opinion, Marciano would have had trouble coping with Patterson's hand speed in the early rounds and he may have sustained a few serious cuts in the early portion of the fight. However, the strength, tenacity, and raw punching power of Marciano would have eventually wore Patterson out in a much more competitive fight than most fans would have imagined. As for a Marciano vs. Liston bout, I feel that Rocky would have eventually met his Waterloo versus the larger, stronger, and nastier Liston. In my opinion, Liston vs. Marciano would be an exact replica of the Foreman vs. Frazier battles with Sonny emerging on top. While Sonny Liston may have a bully who quit when the going got tough versus the young Clay/Ali, I don't believe that Marciano had the size or style needed to test Sonny's heart. If Liston could land his big shots versus Marciano and utilize his mammouth reach and jab to his advantage, he had little reason to fear "The Rock". To Marciano's credit, he would not fear Liston or even think of taking a backward step. This warrior mentality would prove near fatal to Marciano. In conclusion, when I think of Rocky Marciano, I think of the great warrior who, despite his size and reach disadvantages, rose to the top of the heavyweight division. Had he stuck around long enough for Liston's rise in the heavyweight division, I'm afraid that Rocky's undefeated record would have gone to the wayside. Rocky Marciano, unlike many before and after him, had the intelligence and sense to conclude his career at the absolutely correct time.
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(43 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 2:13 PM
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Speaking of Joe Frazier, did he finally close his gym? I remember hearing that he and the gym were in financial dire straits and that they reckoned it would be closed down and the property sold. I hope all is well with him.
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(42 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 2:05 PM
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> it did look like he was hamming up there but he
> clearly was hit as proved on tape. i think he coulda
> got up but woulda lost anyway.
Compare that kind of heart to Frazier standing up after horrific knockdown NUMBER SIX, against Big George, and still wanting to fight.
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(41 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 1:59 PM
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it did look like he was hamming up there but he clearly was hit as proved on tape. i think he coulda got up but woulda lost anyway.
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(40 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 12:51 PM
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> To me, that punch always looked like enough to put
> Sonny down, but not keep him there. Sonny kept
> himself down.
Liston looked rather like a water buffalo, wallering in mud in order to keep the flies off.
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(39 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 12:00 PM
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mighta been that long count giving him too much time to think like, "should i get up? why bother? cant hit this guy anyway" then since walcotts checking with the timekeeper, liston says, "well i guess i better get up" and he did get up and continue but like 15 seconds had passed already with all the sending ali back to the corner and checking with the timekeeper. i dont think it woulda mattered. he couldnt touch ali. i just wiki checked and found out that sonny ko'd top contenders valdez and cleveland williams and outpointed machen so you know he could fight.
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(38 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 11:51 AM
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To me, that punch always looked like enough to put Sonny down, but not keep him there. Sonny kept himself down.
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(37 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 21, 2009 11:49 AM
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ali's phantom punch landed. only ali can laser in a shot like that moving backward and in an instant shooting it in. not hard, he wasnt a puncher but so sharp and unexpected, imo it catches sonny so unaware he dont react and goes down legit. the best part to me was when walcott walks ali to the neutral corner and as he approaches liston to continue the count, ali comes skipping back into the frame.
i think i heard dundee once say that he saw liston knock a mans mouth piece out and it still had teeth in it. you never know what to believe.
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(36 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 11:49 PM
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> > > I heard that as well. I heard they took
> his
> > blood
> > > pressure to see if he was alright and it
> was
> > normal.
> > > Fear elevates the BP. He wasn't scared. He
> > scared the
> > > big bad wolf. They said the same thing
> about
> > > Frazier,Folley, and Williams. The GOAT a
> > chicken.
> >
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> > --------
> > Nah, no fear at all in Clay/Ali, he was too
> > confident, and cocky to be afraid of anybody,
> or
> > anything. Prior to the fight, he got so
> friggin'
> > carried away with the antics he was pulling to
> piss
> > off Liston, his BP went way up, but it wasn't
> from
> > fear, just from acting the fool, LOL !
>
> Yo Pugs, you better not let the champ hear you call
> him Clay !
> LMAO
****************************************
LOL ewashi ! His fights with Terrell, and Patterson, as he was whuppin' on their asses, he was asking them, "What's my name...what's my name?"
When I met him, and his wife Lonnie in person at his daughter, Laila's first fight at the Turning Stone Casino , in Verona, I just kind of looked at him in awe, and said, "It's very nice to meet you Mr. and Misses Ali"...I went nowhere near the "Clay" name !
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(35 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 8:44 PM
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>
> Yo Pugs, you better not let the champ hear you call
> him Clay !
> LMAO
Lol, yeah but we never even knew he was going
by that until the second Liston fight. Ever since before
the Doug Jones fight I knew him as Clay. It was after the
Terrell and Patterson fights that I started calling him
Ali cause everybody was making a big deal out of it, lol.
--
Edited by JimEarl at 10/20/2009 6:08 PM PDT
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(34 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 8:36 PM
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> > I heard that as well. I heard they took his
> blood
> > pressure to see if he was alright and it was
> normal.
> > Fear elevates the BP. He wasn't scared. He
> scared the
> > big bad wolf. They said the same thing about
> > Frazier,Folley, and Williams. The GOAT a
> chicken.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> --------
> Nah, no fear at all in Clay/Ali, he was too
> confident, and cocky to be afraid of anybody, or
> anything. Prior to the fight, he got so friggin'
> carried away with the antics he was pulling to piss
> off Liston, his BP went way up, but it wasn't from
> fear, just from acting the fool, LOL !
Yo Pugs, you better not let the champ hear you call him Clay !
LMAO
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(33 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 8:36 PM
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>
> In the limited footage I've seen of Sonny Liston, &
> the accounts I've read, Liston had a jab that could
> not be surpassed.
A telephone pole if he hit you with it and he
he attempted to double up on it pretty well
with Ali.....to no avail in that case.
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194
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(32 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 8:32 PM
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> In addition to being a big, strong, powerful
> brute.....Sonny Liston was an extremely technically
> sound fighter. He was not very fast (at all), but he
> threw every punch in the book, threw them well, and
> was a patient fighter.
In the limited footage I've seen of Sonny Liston, & the accounts I've read, Liston had a jab that could not be surpassed.
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(31 of 44)
Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 7:05 PM
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> I heard that as well. I heard they took his blood
> pressure to see if he was alright and it was normal.
> Fear elevates the BP. He wasn't scared. He scared the
> big bad wolf. They said the same thing about
> Frazier,Folley, and Williams. The GOAT a chicken.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, no fear at all in Clay/Ali, he was too confident, and cocky to be afraid of anybody, or anything. Prior to the fight, he got so friggin' carried away with the antics he was pulling to piss off Liston, his BP went way up, but it wasn't from fear, just from acting the fool, LOL !
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Re: A bad mother -better-watch-your-mouth ...of a heavyweight ?
Oct 20, 2009 6:49 PM
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> Jim, do you remember for years how that "anchor"
> punch was called the "phantom" punch because most Ali
> haters claimed the fight was a fix, yadda, yadda,
> yadda ?
>
> If you watch that punch in super slo-mo, you can
> easily see that it was a perfectly timed, short right
> hand, and that it really jarred Liston's ass. I don't
> know if it was hard enough to stop the fight, and I
> really think a lot of that knockdown was put on some
> by Liston because he really didn't wanna get more of
> Ali if he got back up. He knew he couldn't handle
> him, and used it for an out....IMO anyway. What say
> you ?
Yeah Jimmy Cannon was always full of it.....imagine
that.....A sportswriter being full of it! I was a Willie
Pastrano fan (both were Dundee's fighters) before
Ali ever fought Liston, so I liked Ali / Clay even though
I didn't always agree politically. He just fought
Pastrano's mobile kind of fight that I liked the most at
that time.....You know some sportswriters like for
fighters to take unnecessary punishment because
they don't have to.
tszyunami's video shows that Liston did get up Albeit late.
Sonny knew who was the better fighter at that point
even if Jimmy Cannon didn't.
--
Edited by JimEarl at 10/20/2009 4:35 PM PDT
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