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Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

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Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?


Stoker MacIntosh

When I hear boxing scribes make the statement: There are some men who are born to be fighters, there is only one name that immediately comes to mind, Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Boxing's "Pretty Boy" was born into a lineage of truly talented fighters. He is grown from a fertile genetic seed which produces the finite skills needed to become the elite among the elite.

Consequently, from this DNA makeup, we came to believe that Mayweather is a highly superior, defensively skilled fighter who performs with the elusiveness and speed of an athletic housefly, but has the power and strength of a thoroughbred.

Trained by his father?Floyd Sr?and his uncle Roger, the Mayweather team effort has awarded the family a five-division world champion.

Less than two short years ago, at the time of his retirement, Mayweather Jr, by most accounts was?pound for pound, the best fighter in boxing.

The passing up of $8 million to fight the now-tainted Antonio Margarito, in favor of a more lucrative deal involving Oscar De La Hoya?a fighter who he seemed to have been chasing his entire career?in hindsight now seems to be a stroke of genius.

Although, after winning a close decision over De La Hoya, talk of a rematch started circulating though the boxing world, however, the elite fighter nick-named Pretty Boy decided against it, and stated that it was time for a well deserved rest.


Mayweather announced his retirement shortly thereafter.

Since then times have changes, there's a new kid in town, and he has risen to a level of success and popularity that Mayweather can only dream of.

During his respite, Mayweather has witnessed his informal standing as the world's best pound-for-pound fighter handed over to Manny Pacquiao of the Philippines.

Pacquiao is small for a welterweight, but the size deficit compared to some of his recent opponents seems to make little difference; which is one possible reason he is being compared to the great Henry Armstrong.

Even by today's standards the 5'5" 133 lb Armstrong?who was known as "Homicide Hank"?was also very small for a welterweight; and not unlike Pacquiao, he also took on all comers regardless of size, shape, color, or creed, winning titles from lightweight to middle weight in violent knockout fashion.

The only man to thoroughly out-box and befuddle Armstrong was the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

In 1943, the 22 year old Robinson, who is now considered by many to be the greatest fighter to ever lace up boxing gloves?handed Armstrong?who at that time was past his prime at 30, a thorough beating.
Unless you have been living in a cave, you have no doubt heard that Mayweather announced his return to the ring this past Saturday at a highly publicized news conference at the MGM Grand, in Las Vegas.

Suspiciously timed, to air before Pacquiao's recent spectacular prizefight?in which he scored a thrilling second-round knockout over 140-pound champion Ricky Hatton, Mayweather announced he will fight Mexico's Juan Manuel Marquez on July 18, in a welterweight bout expected to be set at a catch-weight limit of 144 pounds.

"How am I not the king when nobody's taken my throne?" said Mayweather, who wore black clothing, including a stocking cap and large boots to the news conference.

Pretty boy says he's prepared to fight all of boxing's top challengers near his weight level, including Pacquiao, Pomona's Shane Mosley and even a possible De La Hoya rematch.

Now far be it from me, to tarnish the name of the great Sugar Ray Robinson, but if Mayweather succeeds in cleaning up the loose ends he left behind in 2007?by defeating Marquez, Pacquiao, Mosley?and if he can also, somehow convince De La Hoya to return to the ring and face him in a rematch, will anyone, anywhere once again?ever doubt his greatness?

I think not.

"One day, someone will shut my mouth,"Right now, I'm the top dog."-- Floyd Mayweather Jr
Last Post May 11, 2009 4:42 PM by: usaf2006
cargilb1
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 8, 2009 3:38 PM
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> If all of that is a long winded excuse for not
> defending titles against all comers then so be it.
> That's twenty defenses of his heaviest weight
> title.
>
> Pacquiao has the better record I would say.
> 1 defense of his WBC Flyweight title.
> Won a WBC Superbantamweight title right
> after his loss to Singsurat. That's impressive !
> 6 defenses of that plus a unification.
> 3 defenses of his Superbantamweight IBF title.
> That is domination of a division with two
> sanctioning bodies which arguably trumps
> Floyd's seven WBA defenses at 130......But it
> isn't twenty yet.
>
> That's what he's done before the Barrera fight.
> Then six defenses of a WBC superfeatherweight
> title and then wins their lightweight
> title.........That's
> impressive actually and you should have argued it
> on that basic boxrec record.
>
>
>
> --
> The Great Joe Gans
>
> --
> Edited by JimEarl at 05/07/2009 10:05 PM PDT

>
> I can't say Manny has a better record than Armstrong
> or vice versa coz there is no actual point of
> comparison here between the two. In terms of the
> number of title defenses, Armstrong is way better
> than Manny, but when it comes to the number of
> division titles, Manny did edged out Armstrong in
> that department ( from Flyweight to Light
> Welterweight).



yes, that is all i was saying. Manny surpassed Armstrong. All the stuff about who is actually better is betetr left for people that are well informed as to Armstorng and Manny's opponents.

Anyway, getting back to another point I made as to why a manny fight with Cotto or mosley is more important historically than any other fight is that it would possibly give Manny a legit WW belt and a nother division.

That would be an awesiome achievment.

Of course, boxing is going with the money and the money is in the Manny cv FM fight, and that is a great match up too, but it doesn't have the same historical note added to it.

in 50 yrs when manny is discussed by boxing fans, him winning the WW tiotle would be remmebered if he won, and the FM fight will not be remebered at all.

OPoint in case, who were armstriongs opponents? Who did he beat to win the 3rd title in the 3rd division? who defeated Armstrong at ww?

These are questions 99% of people need to look up, but most avid boxing fans know that he won titles ranging from featherweight to WW: a remarkable achievement worthy of all the accolades he has gotten.

--
I came
I saw
and I conquered
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 8, 2009 7:41 AM
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If all of that is a long winded excuse for not
defending titles against all comers then so be it.
That's twenty defenses of his heaviest weight
title.

Pacquiao has the better record I would say.
1 defense of his WBC Flyweight title.
Won a WBC Superbantamweight title right
after his loss to Singsurat. That's impressive !
6 defenses of that plus a unification.
3 defenses of his Superbantamweight IBF title.
That is domination of a division with two
sanctioning bodies which arguably trumps
Floyd's seven WBA defenses at 130......But it
isn't twenty yet.

That's what he's done before the Barrera fight.
Then six defenses of a WBC superfeatherweight
title and then wins their lightweight title.........That's
impressive actually and you should have argued it
on that basic boxrec record.



--
The Great Joe Gans

--
Edited by JimEarl at 05/07/2009 10:05 PM PDT


I can't say Manny has a better record than Armstrong or vice versa coz there is no actual point of comparison here between the two. In terms of the number of title defenses, Armstrong is way better than Manny, but when it comes to the number of division titles, Manny did edged out Armstrong in that department ( from Flyweight to Light Welterweight).
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 7, 2009 8:07 PM
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If all of that is a long winded excuse for not
defending titles against all comers then so be it.
That's twenty defenses of his heaviest weight
title
.

Pacquiao has the better record I would say.
1 defense of his WBC Flyweight title.
Won a WBC Superbantamweight title right
after his loss to Singsurat. That's impressive !
6 defenses of that plus a unification.
3 defenses of his Superbantamweight IBF title.
That is domination of a division with two
sanctioning bodies which arguably trumps
Floyd's seven WBA defenses at 130......But it
isn't twenty yet.

That's what he's done before the Barrera fight.
Then six defenses of a WBC superfeatherweight
title and then wins their lightweight title.........That's
impressive actually and you should have argued it
on that basic boxrec record.



--
The Great Joe Gans

--
Edited by JimEarl at 05/07/2009 10:05 PM PDT
cargilb1
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 7, 2009 7:48 PM
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well, then if are going to analyze time periods then we need to analyze Henry's time period also and we don't need to be nostalgic about it. Nostagia usually depends on illusion anyway.

In Henry's era few nations were involved in boxing and the talent pool was smaller. The US population alone is not enough to measure the talent in the world. you can call a person a world champ if the only country participating was the USA. that is kind of self centered of Americans.

To be a champ today you may truly have to defeat fighters of other parts of the world not just the USA. And there is still more countries that can be tapped into.

its like major league baseball having a World Series. What other countries are they defeating? There are no other countries involved. Certainly Henry did not have to defeat a Philippine, a Mexican, A Brit, and some of the various nationalities that boxing taps into today.

and certainly the fact that we live in a seemingly smaller world where a world class trainer like Freddie roach can travel half way around the world and train an excellent fighter like Pacman, did not exist. The world is a smaller place and information is more accessible today then back then.

So yes there were factors that were good in the past, but today we a have a different set of factors, and certainly a larger pool of talent to choose fighters from for the various titles and weights.

And again, I must address the fact that today fighters don't fight as often as in the past, so to expect a fighter, to defend a title at the tail end of his career 20 times is not really reasonable. Manny, may not fight 20 fights from here to his retirement. today 30 and 40 fights alone is a long career, and the first 20 to 25 fights a fighter spends building his professional talents and resume.

These are totally different eras and those stats are meaningless today because of the eras. Going back to baseball again. You can't expect a starting pitcher today, to end up with as many complete games as in the past. today pitchers get pulled faster. You won't see pitchers with complete games in the double digits very often. In the past it was common place.

its like making an issue of the age of fighters today as opposed to the yesteryear. you can't make the argument that people are togher today that yesteryear because they fight well past 30 today and are not necessarily on the downside of their career. At 30 Henry was considered well past his prime back then. today 30 is nothing.


--
I came
I saw
and I conquered

--
Edited by cargilb1 at 05/07/2009 4:50 PM PDT

--
Edited by cargilb1 at 05/07/2009 4:55 PM PDT
GunRunner2
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 10:21 PM
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> "One day, someone will shut my mouth,"Right now, I'm
> the top dog."
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Floyd is definitely not the top dog, but maybe just a
> hotdog... :O


*Choke* LOL! I just choked on a piece of beef jerky.

--
"What good are eyes if the mind is blind?" - Arab proverb
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 10:10 PM
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Well my statement to both Pacquiao AND Mayweather
groupies still stands. LOTs of people have surpassed
Armstrong's number of titles actually but I still don't
know any of them who have defended their heaviest
weight title 20 times
!

There isn't any basis on which to compare them
(since people usually do that on the basis of their
accomplishments) unless we're just "what-if"
speculating in the face of their accomplishments.

Fighters just don't have to do what they used to
do, to get to and stay on top, in the day and age
of PPV hype.

btw cargilb,
I didn't try to define any of your argument, only my
response as per comparisons......since comparisons
were, in effect, being made.

So with that in mind:
I'm always more than happy to compare records
of the great old timers to contemporary fighters

and appreciate Croatian's opportunity provided by
this here thread.



--
The Great Joe Gans

--
Edited by JimEarl at 05/07/2009 12:03 AM PDT
cargilb1
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 9:50 PM
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> Like I was telling cargilb, neither Pacquiao's or
> Floyd's accomplishments are to be compared
> to Armstrong because he defended his highest
> weight title 20 times
before losing it to Fritzie
>
> Zivic.......and was arguably robbed in his
> middleweight
> title fight "draw" with Ceferino Garcia.
>
> And Robinson ? C'mon, nobody is quite going to
> match their kinds of accomplishments in the ring
> ever again because they don't fight as often.
>
> --
> The
> Great Joe Gans

>
> --
> Edited by JimEarl at 05/05/2009 11:51 PM PDT


yes, but I never made the point that Henry was comparable to Pacquiao on a fight by fight basis, or that pacman was better.


I said pacman's 4 or 5 major titles depending on how you view it, if he won the WW, would surpass Armstrong's 3 major titles. Is this true or not? Are 4 major titles more than 3 major titles? This is a question you have not answered and I have asked it about 3 times.

YOu are letting FM groupies confuse you by changing the subject and expanding it to mean things that I did not say, or even intend to say.

I never made a fight by fight comparision or a styles comparison, or anything of a sort. I merely compared the titles and said pacman surpassed Armstrong.

If I say Aaron surpassed Ruth as the HR king, that doesn't mean that I am saying that Aaron was better in every aspect of the game than ruth. Ruth has a 340 lifetime average to Aaron's 300 lifetime. Ruth avg 1 hr every 11.6 at bats, to aarons 1 hr for every about 20 at bats.
These are 2 different issues: apples and oranges.

you are putting words in my mouth. thats not a good way to discuss the issue.

don't let the FM groupies confuse you.

--
I came
I saw
and I conquered

--
Edited by cargilb1 at 05/06/2009 6:54 PM PDT
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 9:07 PM
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floyd mayweather jr is being compared to one of the greatest ever.... wow these mayweather groupies just dont kno when to stop.... geeze man... if i pulled out his records and all the top oppts... and compare it to mayweather safe record.... oh forget it it wouldnt phase you all.... you cant make the def hear or the blind see... funny though is this the comedy column?????


I DONT JUDGE FIGHTERS BASED ON MY LOVE OR HATE FOR THEM I DONT LOVE OR HATE THEM....I JUST LOVE THE SPORT AND I CALL IT HOW I SEE IT......

knockits12
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 3:48 PM
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> > Jim, the author didn't compare accomplishments.
> Did
> > you read the article?
> >
> > It's just a poor man's comparison to fighters of

> the
> > past. Like one author wrote asking "Is Baldomir
> the
> > Duran to Mayweather's Leonard" citing that
> > Baldomir might have a shot at a upset.

>
> Balbomir.....Duran
> Please Croatian, you're trying hard to bait me here
> with pure heresy !
>
> Whatever Croatian, but if Floyd wants to compare
> himself to Robinson then he's still got it to do just
>
> at 140 considering his never unifying a title with
> Cotto in either of two divisions where they shared
> titles at the opportune time when Cotto was
> undefeated
.
>
> I'd like to think he'd beat Duran at 135 but he
> never matched Duran's cleaning of the '70s
> lightweights or his unification of that title with
> the last De Jesus fight......so I guess he'd better
> at least not get KTFO by Pacquiao !
>
> --
> The
> Great Joe Gans


> > Jim, the author didn't compare accomplishments.
> Did
> > you read the article?
> >
> > It's just a poor man's comparison to fighters of

> the
> > past. Like one author wrote asking "Is Baldomir
> the
> > Duran to Mayweather's Leonard" citing that
> > Baldomir might have a shot at a upset.

>
> Balbomir.....Duran
> Please Croatian, you're trying hard to bait me here
> with pure heresy !
>
> Whatever Croatian, but if Floyd wants to compare
> himself to Robinson then he's still got it to do just
>
> at 140 considering his never unifying a title with
> Cotto in either of two divisions where they shared
> titles at the opportune time when Cotto was
> undefeated
.
>
> I'd like to think he'd beat Duran at 135 but he
> never matched Duran's cleaning of the '70s
> lightweights or his unification of that title with
> the last De Jesus fight......so I guess he'd better
> at least not get KTFO by Pacquiao !
>
> --
> The
> Great Joe Gans


I agree Jim but there weren't 4 world champs to unify with in the 70's. Some titles are created like the Ring Magazine's

--
See you at the fights !
GoldenGluvs
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 10:15 AM
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LMAO @ Neut Blaming Floyd, for people having an inability to look at things objectively.

If you can't judge me by my work ethic and performance, then you're the one with the problem....not the other way around.

True fans, historians and his peers, will know what time it is....and honestly (other than his pockets being full), i'm sure that's all that matters to him.

--
"May we never condemn in a brother, what we would pardon in ourselves..."
NeutralCorner
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 8:44 AM
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Floyd will get his seal of greatness from many if he never laces them up again. He'll get the seal from most of those if he loses all three of those fights by KO. He WILL NOT get the seal from some no matter who he beats, but if he would have just avoided playing the punk (yes, it was interspersed with handing out Turkeys on T-Giving, but fans see the fight promos, not turkey clips) over the years, not gone out of his way to assume the role of villian for all his big fights and just did his thing in the ring, there would not be so much of this BS debate. People would actually be able to look OBJECTIVELY at the fighter and come to rational conclusions. Unfortunately objectivity left the building... A LOOOONG time ago...

BTW: DLH a second time? Isn't it a bit late for that? Nobody gives a crap about a DLH rematch. Mosley, Cotto, Williams, Pac remove ALL doubt. Any three remove 90%.
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 4:53 AM
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>
> Wow are you dense?
>


I've been accused of it by girlfreinds.
What's it to you?

> Why are you going all over the place. I JUST TOLD
> you, it's not a question of their accomplishments.
> The author himself said at the end. I threw the
> Baldomir-Mayweather/Duran-Leonard thing to try
> explain this article but obviously it didn't work.
>


That's probably because it's not the better analogy.

> >Whatever Croatian, but if Floyd wants to compare
> >himself to Robinson then he's still got it to do

>
> just
> Where in this article did Floyd compare himself to
> Robinson, that wasn't the point of the article.


Will then it didn't, in jest, "tarnish the name of the
great Sugar Ray Robinson", such as the header
must have most certainly done inadvertently.

--
The Great Joe Gans
terriblejoe
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 4:17 AM
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"One day, someone will shut my mouth,"Right now, I'm the top dog."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Floyd is definitely not the top dog, but maybe just a hotdog... :O
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 4:09 AM
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I don't care anyway, I just thought it was a good read. A different way to look at the Pac/Mayweather from a historical perspective.

I knew someone was gonna get their feathers ruffled for anyone daring to compare Floyd to the almighty great Robinson.
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Re: Floyd Mayweather Jr: Is He the Ray Robinson to Pacquiao's Henry Armstrong?

May 6, 2009 4:06 AM
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> > Jim, the author didn't compare accomplishments.
> Did
> > you read the article?
> >
> > It's just a poor man's comparison to fighters of

> the
> > past. Like one author wrote asking "Is Baldomir
> the
> > Duran to Mayweather's Leonard" citing that
> > Baldomir might have a shot at a upset.

>
> Balbomir.....Duran
> Please Croatian, you're trying hard to bait me here
> with pure heresy !
>
> Whatever Croatian, but if Floyd wants to compare
> himself to Robinson then he's still got it to do just
>
> at 140 considering his never unifying a title with
> Cotto in either of two divisions where they shared
> titles at the opportune time when Cotto was
> undefeated
.
>
> I'd like to think he'd beat Duran at 135 but he
> never matched Duran's cleaning of the '70s
> lightweights or his unification of that title with
> the last De Jesus fight......so I guess he'd better
> at least not get KTFO by Pacquiao !


Wow are you dense?

Why are you going all over the place. I JUST TOLD you, it's not a question of their accomplishments. The author himself said at the end. I threw the Baldomir-Mayweather/Duran-Leonard thing to try explain this article but obviously it didn't work.

>Whatever Croatian, but if Floyd wants to compare
>himself to Robinson then he's still got it to do just


Where in this article did Floyd compare himself to Robinson, that wasn't the point of the article.
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