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This topic is locked - replies are not allowed.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
6/26/04
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(10922 of 10922)
Jun 26, 2004 9:48 AM
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Just wondering if anyone knows when the show is going to start its second season? Thanks.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
2/12/04
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(10921 of 10922)
Re: Management (In training)
Feb 13, 2004 8:31 AM
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I don't think that Ruthie will wake up possessed by Lodz. I've believed from the beginning of the series that Ruthie is the moral center for the Carnies. Her role never changes. Who she trusts (e.g. Ben), and who she doesn't trust (e.g. Lodz) is generally a pretty good guide for the viewer in navigating through the ambiguities of the good vs. evil theme of the show. For example, her eulogy for Dora Mae and her asking God to forgive her frailties because she was a "good" girl demonstrates Ruthie's ability to be both realistic and compassionate. She is the moral compass of this show. I think that her instincts and opinions are clues which can help us discern meaning and, in this way, are as relevant and important as Ben's dreams.
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Posts:
17,840
Registered:
4/21/03
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(10920 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 2:38 PM
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> Firstly-
> Rush Limbaugh. (hehehe) I know the guy is the most
> pompous ass EVER. I work in my dad-in-law's office.
> First day of working, changed the station from Rush
> to good-ole-classic-rock. Met with the utmost RAGE!
> Now I'm used to it.
OMG. I could NEVER get used to it. I found myself unemployed and listening to a rant of his about the selfish unemployed losers cluttering our land. I was volunteering (ironically, IMO,) at a Wildlife Organization, and we had euthanasia chemicals on hand.
Visions of Rush's Happy Homeless final solution facility for the unemployed and useless kept flashing through my head, and I had to go, man. especially since my co-workers were nodding and cheering him on.
> While his ego is terrifying, I
> I have decided to take the opportunity to learn from
> different points of view. Consider myself a fiscal
> conservative, and part social liberal, part social
> anarchist wrapped into a little Libertarian package.
Bun-Bun, that's a very depressing package. Unless maybe you mean something else, which is real, real possible.
Fiscal conservative=no welfare, no child support, screw education for the disenfranchised, no public social services, families should take care of their own.
Social Liberal=don't tell me who to have sex with, and just 'cause I'm your Daddy don't mean I owe you or your mother money. Social anarchist-either way, nobody should ever tell anybody what to do, even if it's the neighbor barbecuing your cats on his lawn. He with the scariest face and biggest gun gets his way.
Libertarian=do what you want, just don't ask me to pay for it. And I'm keeping my gun.
Those concepts together creep me out. But you don't. Could it be that your political position doesn't define you? I think it could.
> (Contradict myself much?) Point is, by listening to
> Rush I have heard about topics I would not normally
> research myself. However, he ain't for the faint of
> heart.
Or the depressed, unemployed, and miserable. 
> What I would like to see as far as characters go-
> 1) A well dressed, black woman getting her tarot
> cards read.
> 2) A poorly dressed black women getting her tarot
> cards read.
Could this have happened during segregation?
Would she be there, the same day as the white people, or would the carnivale have to have a whole separate day, or area?
> 3) A black chaufer (spelling)
For whom? Nobody rich enough yet-Justin, maybe.
> 4) A white chaufer (again, no clue)
> 5) A black practioner in Brother Justin's church
Illegal-wouldn't happen.
> 6) A black maid in Brother Justin's house
What about poor Eleanor? Just chuck her out?
> 7) A little black kid riding the ferris wheel
> 8) A nappy headed miner grabbing at a cootch girl
> 9) A greasy white kid grabbing at a cootch girl
> etc.etc.etc.
> My point is that inclusion does not automatically
> infer scandal. This time in American history
> contained equal treatment, and horribly unequal
> treatment.
For the most part, there were entire TOWNS that were black or white. Segregation was the law. Intermarriage was illegal, schools and churches and hospitals were "separate but equal," and the can of worms this opens up for a carnival, is tricky. It's true that among the freaks, race was no issue.
and also that among the rousties, a black person or two would appear. But how do you reconcile a mostly white carnivale, stopping in a black town? Especially since they're looking for Scudder, who is white, and would therefore be hiding in a white town?
> Blacks getting to use the N-word (hypocritical?)-
> My g'ma used to use the N-word all the time, and
> believe me; she didn't restrict it to blacks. I
> believe, to her it had lost its original meaning.
My grandma would have fainted. I don't think it ever lost its original meaning for her. Soap, by the crateful, Bun.
> And it was about equal with fucker. Drove me nuts.
> My mom has been known on occasion to call others
> s stupid Mexicans. Drives me nuts, because she is
> the first to accuse someone of racial
> "insensitivities," which I find hilarious since she
> kept her last (in a long line) husband name: Harris.
> Plus she's pretty light skinned, many claim she
> looks Greek (?!?!).
OMG-I will bet your our Grandmas look a LOT alike. Mine looks just like the original first lady of Liberia.
> That said, I do not feel I
> claim any right to the words. I was asked by an
> older lady at the ole Rural King (land of farm
> supplies) if I was an Indian, I said, "Yes, partly."
> Her reply, "Dots or feathers?" I found this to be
> e funny, because she probably thought she was being
> "correct" in asking this way.
Or at least friendly-sounding. Of course, why she needed to know, is another whole story.....
> Plus, by using the term hillbilly am
> I not perpetuating my own stereotype? This
> discussion is a long and twisted one.
Quite right.
> Has proved to
> be difficult, time consuming ("The tallish gentlemen
> in the corner wearing a Colts jersey."), and maybe a
> bit unnecessary? Working this one out.
LOL! This I totally relate to. Then again, if you're in a room with all black people, "that black guy over there," is not a helpful description. I feel if we can say, "she's that redhead, with the pink sweater," or, "the blonde over there," then ethnic characteristics ought to be like any other physical feature. Height, weight, skin color, hair color, it's all just physical features.
Physical things aren't that important, but you try describing someone to a total stranger by their spiritual qualities!
> 3) There really should be Native, black, and white
> crowds alongside the expected "Latino". It would be
> neat to see them set up with an Indian Pueblo in the
> background. Indians would diffenetly go see a tarot
> cards reader (oops, may not be one).
In 1934? You sure? There would most likely be someone way better than Sofie already in residence.
> You would
> likely see families walking around with a European
> looking white mom, a Mexican looking dad, and mixed
> kids.
Cool. But wasn't Northern New Mexico as segregated as TX? And wouldn't it be a gigantic headache to try to explain that over and over to people who wrote in to "correct" this detail on the show?
I appreciate your multicultural perspective, and I'm not disagreeing, just throwing in the more Midwestern perspective, here.
T
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Posts:
17,840
Registered:
4/21/03
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(10919 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 2:07 PM
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Bri,
These are the lyrics I see describing Lodz.
Dead Lyrics
Artist(Band):They Might Be Giants
(Print the Lyrics)
I returned a bag of groceries
Accidently taken off the shelf
Before the expiration date
I came back as a bag of groceries
Accidently taken off the shelf
Before the date stamped on myself
Did a large procession wave their (Did a)
Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)
And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)
Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)
Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do
I will never say the word
"Procrastinate" again; I'll never
See myself in the mirror with my eyes closed
I didn't apologize for
When I was eight and I made my younger brother
Have to be my personal slave
Did a large procession wave their (Did a)
Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)
And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)
Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)
Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do
(So) So I won't
(Sit) sit at home
(And) anymore
(And) and you won't
(And) see my head in
(And) the window
(And) and I won't
(And) be around
(And) ever anymore
(And) and I'll be up there on the wall at the store
I returned a bag of groceries
Accidently taken off the shelf
Before the expiration date
I came back as a bag of groceries
Accidently taken off the shelf
Before the date stamped on myself
Did a large procession wave their (Did a)
Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)
And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)
Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)
Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do
Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)
Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do
I still maintain MGMT is Lodz' younger brother.
T
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Posts:
17,840
Registered:
4/21/03
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(10918 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 1:56 PM
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> The night sets softly
> With the hush of falling leaves,
> Casting shivering shadows
> On the houses through the trees,
> And the light from a street lamp
> Paints a pattern on my wall,
> Like the pieces of a puzzle
> Or a child's uneven scrawl.
>
> Up a narrow flight of stairs
> In a narrow little room,
> As i lie upon my bed
> In the early evening gloom.
> Impaled on my wall
> My eyes can dimly see
> The pattern of my life
> And the puzzle that is me.
>
> From the moment of my birth
> To the instant of my death,
> There are patterns i must follow
> Just as i must breathe each breath.
> Like a rat in a maze
> The path before me lies,
> And the pattern never alters
> Until the rat dies.
>
> And the pattern still remains
> On the wall where darkness fell,
> And it's fitting that it should,
> For in darkness i must dwell.
> Like the color of my skin,
> Or the day that i grow old,
> My life is made of patterns
> That can scarcely be controlled.
>
> "Patterns" by Paul Simon 1966
I love this. It fits.
T
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Posts:
17,840
Registered:
4/21/03
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(10917 of 10922)
Re: Management (In training)
Jan 8, 2004 1:55 PM
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> E! -
>
> > Bri and T,
> >
> > What's this?!
> > Hitler never actually killed anybody, personally?
> > (Man! I always knew that guy was a sissy!)
> > LOL!
> >
> > Always,
> > EVIL!
>
> Adolph's first lover was his cousin who he drove to
> suicide. And who was it that shot Eva as a wedding
> present. Too bad he then shot himself.
this is fabulous, and I wish I could show this to the friend who first posed the trick question to me, because I came out feeling VERY simple.
> But unless Adolph was a figurehead-marionette, like
> our own Moron, I hold Adolph fully responsible for
> all the death and destruction his dictatorship
> caused, including that of genocide, military losses
> on all sides, civilian losses on all sides, and
> material destruction all all sides.
Hmmm. Frustrated artist becomes figurehead, actually. It seems to me he shouldn't be let off the hook, but at the same time, I think the people who put him in power shouldn't get let off the hook, either!
>
> If there is predestiny (which I don't believe in)
> then God used Adolph to scare Europe away from
> serious war, and towards peaceful unification. God
> also, partially because of the genocide, ended up
> causing the independent state of Israel to exist for
> over 2000 years.
See, I could almost believe this, myself. This is fascinating.
>
> As Evil as Hitler was, his worst intentions and
> results, also resulted in a reaction against
> intollerance.
My father likes to say Fred Phelps is the best thing that ever happened to the churches and gays of Topeka-everyone is eager to dis associate themselves from his hateful ideas, and show tolerance. without him they might not have bothered.
>
> Stalin was what Hitler saw when he looked in a
> mirror, and visa versa, and it bothered both of them.
> I suspect Stalin personally murdered quite a few.
I suspect Bush has murdered just as many, in much the same ways.
> The USSR beat the crap out of the Nazi's
> and was therefore Stalin one of "our" Bastards, at
> least during WW2.
Wondering idly now, and with no realy conviction in one direction or the other, whether genocide or fratricide is more evil. (and will take up the opposite side of the debate if it comes up-just for the hell of it.)
>
T
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Posts:
17,840
Registered:
4/21/03
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(10916 of 10922)
Re: Management (In training)
Jan 8, 2004 1:47 PM
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> titannia & Poli -
>
> > Poli, Bri,
> >
> > > As much as I would love to be wrong, I think
> Lodz
> > did
> > > devise this Machiavellian scheme which went
> > seriously
> > > awry. We have no idea if Mgmt egged him on, or
> > said
> > > things Lodz didn't fully comprehend.
> > >
> > Okay, if we accept the idea that Lodz hatched the
> > snake scheme, and that this is what he is
> referring
> > to, when he says, "It's the only way to reach the
> > boy," (which actually sound like he's agreeing
> with
> > something MGMT just said,) then we have to accept
> > that MGMT's response is also about the snake
> gambit.
> >
> >
> > We ALL think Lodz "hatched as scheme, with
> > Managment's blessing, to reach Ben." That's what
> the
> > episode guide said. But remember Iris. That is
> > forever my motto now.
> >
> > What I most fear, is Lodz being moved into
> Ruthie's
> > body, because "it's the only way to reach the
> boy."
> >
> >
> > Lodz being up, waiting for Ben, suggests that he
> > knows all about the snake, and everything. But it
> > doesn't mean it was his own idea. In fact, he
> might
> > not even have been the delivery-boy-there are
> several
> > folks running around unaccounted for that night.
> I
> > suspect we'll find Management was doing a lot of
> > brain-hopping that week, and that Lodz' situation
> has
> > a few mitigating factors.
> >
> > T
>
> Ah come on, you just love Lodz. Love is blind. I'm
> sure Eva Braun always found a way to excuse her
> beloved Adolph, probably blaming it all on that
> junkie Hermann Goring, and that old gimp Goebells,
> not to mention that drunk Winston, the cripple
> Franklin, and lets not forget that steely sadist
> Stalin. It's clear to me, based on plot, evidence, OT
> morality and the ironic justice, that Lodz hatched
> the plot, carried it out, and that Management agreed
> to it, tested Lodz, and then pusnished Lodz for his
> damned dirty deed. Lodz has a history of dirty deeds,
> which is why he has admitted he will probably go to
> Hell.
>
> But I agree, Management is completely to blame too,
> and might well have been causing Appy and Sofie to be
> doing strange things, as part of the chess game.
>
> I also fear Ruthie waking up possessed by Lodz, or by
> Management who could use a new body. It is clear to
> me however, that if Ruthie is now possessed, it will
> be obvious to both Ben and Gabe, and probably to
> Samson too. If Ruthie is possessed by Lodz, it would
> also be obvious to Lila.
No way. Ben won't notice unless she LOOKS like Lodz, which she won't. Gabe wouldn't notice anything nonverbal. Samson is the only one who's known Ruthie and Lodz long enough to notice if one began to behave like the other.
Nobody is listening closely enough to Ruthie, except maybe Lodz and Lila recently, to know what her thoughts are. I think as long as a thing is under three syllables and said in her voice, the boys won't notice a thing-it's not like they're hanging on her every word. As long as it's along the lines of "none of your business," "go fetch that thing," and "go to sleep," Lodz'll do just fine sounding like Ruthie, considering he has her voice and body to work with. The crying, he won't do, but then, the crying they won't miss, will they?
> Damn, its a long time until next season.
I cannot believe you made those comparisons, my dear, but I still love you anyway. Given the evidence, I can only say "Remember Iris."
And remember the shrink. He wrote a whole BOOK he doesn't remember writing. You think MGMT couldn't do that to Lodz?
(and I didn't mean to defend the AntiChrist there-I agree he was the most evil man who ever lived. The point is he kept his hands clean-just like MGMT.)
T
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Posts:
45
Registered:
11/18/03
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(10915 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 11:40 AM
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I waited until the board was quiet to broach this subject since discussion has mercifully moved past the painful topic of the deleted posts and the conflagration that followed. Ever since Urnist raised the question of defining evil earlier this week, I
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Posts:
80
Registered:
11/20/03
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(10914 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 11:31 AM
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Firstly-
Rush Limbaugh. (hehehe) I know the guy is the most pompous ass EVER. I work in my dad-in-law's office. First day of working, changed the station from Rush to good-ole-classic-rock. Met with the utmost RAGE! Now I'm used to it. While his ego is terrifying, I have decided to take the opportunity to learn from different points of view. Consider myself a fiscal conservative, and part social liberal, part social anarchist wrapped into a little Libertarian package. (Contradict myself much?) Point is, by listening to Rush I have heard about topics I would not normally research myself. However, he ain't for the faint of heart.
What I would like to see as far as characters go-
1) A well dressed, black woman getting her tarot cards read.
2) A poorly dressed black women getting her tarot cards read.
3) A black chaufer (spelling)
4) A white chaufer (again, no clue)
5) A black practioner in Brother Justin's church
6) A black maid in Brother Justin's house
7) A little black kid riding the ferris wheel
8) A nappy headed miner grabbing at a cootch girl
9) A greasy white kid grabbing at a cootch girl
etc.etc.etc.
My point is that inclusion does not automatically infer scandal. This time in American history contained equal treatment, and horribly unequal treatment.
Blacks getting to use the N-word (hypocritical?)-
My g'ma used to use the N-word all the time, and believe me; she didn't restrict it to blacks. I believe, to her it had lost its original meaning. And it was about equal with fucker. Drove me nuts. My mom has been known on occasion to call others stupid Mexicans. Drives me nuts, because she is the first to accuse someone of racial "insensitivities," which I find hilarious since she kept her last (in a long line) husband name: Harris. Plus she's pretty light skinned, many claim she looks Greek (?!?!). That said, I do not feel I claim any right to the words. I was asked by an older lady at the ole Rural King (land of farm supplies) if I was an Indian, I said, "Yes, partly." Her reply, "Dots or feathers?" I found this to be funny, because she probably thought she was being "correct" in asking this way. In another instance, a big ole Dodge truck pulled up next to me at a stoplight in town. Driver
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Posts:
3,598
Registered:
11/10/03
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(10913 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 5:20 AM
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Galileo
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Posts:
3,598
Registered:
11/10/03
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(10912 of 10922)
Re: Management (In training)
Jan 8, 2004 2:22 AM
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urnist -
> Can anyone explain the Holy Spirit to me, and compare
> it to anything on Carnivale?
>
> absynthe?
>
> yuk-yuk
In that case, I might convert.
Bri
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Posts:
3,598
Registered:
11/10/03
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(10911 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 2:20 AM
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Poli -
> Ok, folks, I finally got around to reviewing the
> story of Ruth from the Bible. Make of this what you
> will:
>
> The story takes place in Bethlehem during a severe
> famine - the land has turned to dust, driving many
> inhabitants to emigrate to the land of Moab. The
> Moabites were the descendants of Lot and his
> incestuous offspring conceived with his daughters.
>
> "...the principal aim of the author was to narrate
> how, in opposition to Deut., xxiii, 3, which forbids
> the reception of Moabites into Yahweh's assembly, the
> Moabitess Ruth was incorporated with Yahweh's people,
> and eventually became the ancestress of the founder
> of the Hebrew monarchy."
>
> Ruth, a widow, accompanies Naomi, her mother-in-law,
> widow of Elimelech (which means "My God is king"),
> back to Bethlehem. Ruth helps collect the sheaves in
> the barley harvest which has just begun and catches
> the eye of Boas. They marry, and she gives birth to
> Obed, the grandfather of David.
>
> Boaz is described as "the lord of the harvest," at
> one Christian site:
> http://www.calvarychapel.com/manitowoc/Library/Gugliel
> o-Joe/Studies/TH/08-rut/TH1015.HTM
>
> "His name means "standing in strength" and he was a
> close relative to Elimelech. Now understand that the
> strength Boaz stood in was not his own, but the
> Lord's. He did not float down stream with the others
> who were carried away into idolatry. He swam against
> the currents of the world and stood firm in the
> Lord."
>
> King Solomon hired Hiram of Tyre to cast two bronze
> pillars for the Temple of Solomon: as previously
> noted, the pillars were named Boaz and Jachin and are
> the same as those which appear on the High Priestess
> Tarot card and in Masonic/Templar lodges.
>
> Poli
Thank you. That was enlightening.
Bri
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Posts:
3,598
Registered:
11/10/03
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(10910 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 2:15 AM
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The night sets softly
With the hush of falling leaves,
Casting shivering shadows
On the houses through the trees,
And the light from a street lamp
Paints a pattern on my wall,
Like the pieces of a puzzle
Or a child's uneven scrawl.
Up a narrow flight of stairs
In a narrow little room,
As i lie upon my bed
In the early evening gloom.
Impaled on my wall
My eyes can dimly see
The pattern of my life
And the puzzle that is me.
From the moment of my birth
To the instant of my death,
There are patterns i must follow
Just as i must breathe each breath.
Like a rat in a maze
The path before me lies,
And the pattern never alters
Until the rat dies.
And the pattern still remains
On the wall where darkness fell,
And it's fitting that it should,
For in darkness i must dwell.
Like the color of my skin,
Or the day that i grow old,
My life is made of patterns
That can scarcely be controlled.
"Patterns" by Paul Simon 1966
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Posts:
2,840
Registered:
11/1/03
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(10909 of 10922)
Re: Management (In training)
Jan 8, 2004 12:52 AM
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Can anyone explain the Holy Spirit to me, and compare it to anything on Carnivale?
absynthe?
yuk-yuk
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Posts:
3,598
Registered:
11/10/03
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(10908 of 10922)
Jan 8, 2004 12:14 AM
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Politiana -
> Which chess pieces would each character represent?
>
> Ruth - White Queen (or Appy?)
> Ben - White King
> Lodz - Black Bishop?
> Justin - Black King
> Iris - Black Queen
> Mngt. - ?owns the board, or a King?
>
> Ben kills Lodz = KxB (King takes Bishop)
>
> OMG - I may have inadvertently added a lot of
> incendiery material to the black character
> discussion.
> A thousand pardons. I think I'll go back to my
> contemplation of the Book of Ruth.
>
> PoliChroma
I would tend to attribute maximum power, not gender, to the Queen. The King is the weakest of pieces because it cannot be sacrificed.
Management is a King. Not sure what color or who the opponent is.
Who are the two most powerful chartacters? Justin and Ben? Are they the Queens? Isn't Scudder more powerful than Ben? Appy could be a Queen too. Iris is a damned mystery. What is her real power?
Jonesy and Samson are White Knights. Able to transcend obstacles others cannot not, despite their seeming limits.
Lodz was a Black Knight. Maybe Iris is too.
Bri
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