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Is it possible to create Rules of Engagement that can protect civilians and soldiers in a war?
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(51 of 51)
Aug 15, 2008 11:21 AM
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OK, Ahruga, you made your point.
You wanna tell the 450 Israeli women they're worthless militarily for me? A round fired by a female (or a kid) can kill someone just as easily as a round fired by a dude, IMO.
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Posts:
5
Registered:
7/30/08
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(50 of 51)
Aug 10, 2008 12:14 AM
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> Even the Israelis don't believe in that ****
>
> 450 women currently serve in combat units of Israel's
> security forces, primarily in the Border Police.
Wow, great. Good for them... Everyone in Israel has to do military time.. Females 1 year Males 3 years.. So pretty much females are worthless even in Israel's military.. I still would cut my Jack off my arm is some female Israel border patrol chick was leading the way!
AHRUGA
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Posts:
4
Registered:
8/7/08
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(49 of 51)
Aug 9, 2008 10:35 PM
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> Encino was calling in a Juliet Echo November (JEN)
> fire mission from Steel Rain. That would be a ATACMS
> fire mission from an MLRS battery.
>
> http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/ATACMSBlockIAUn
> itary/ATACMSBlockIAUnitaryPhoto1.html
>
> You need to provide 4 things to complete a fire
> mission...easting, northing, altitude, and grid zone.
> From what Fick stated Encino didn't have the proper
> grid zone. I think I overheard battery confirming the
> bad grid zone and hence there was no fire mission.
> What confused me was seconds later there was a splash
> on the Baath Party HQ. This would have been another
> request for fire I guess???
If you listen carefully, the dude on the coms saying something to the effect of "alpha team...YOUR coordinates are correct"...basically alpha platoon leader capt. peterson called in the strike on the baath hq yet encino man got the props from Godfather because he "took the initiative" even though he was wrong.
the problem I have..is that with helmets on...peterson looks alot like encino man.
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Posts:
66
Registered:
5/2/08
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(48 of 51)
Aug 9, 2008 6:32 PM
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> "I was very impressed Godfather ordered one of his
> squad to take the wounded Iraqi child to a medical
> facility on this last episode. He understands the
> violence of action, understands the danger of the
> mission, and he understands the mood and tempo of his
> troops. He has a 6th sense, "
>
> Idyoub, if those Marines and their Doc had not
> decided to being the kid to Godfathers tent to die
> that kid would have died where he lay. The Godfather
> was faced with with a mini-revolt from his troops.
> The Godfather ended up doing what he did not want to
> do.
>
> --
> Edited by BTDTGuy at 07/28/2008 7:29 AM PDT
Yes, I feel this is the real issue of this episode, the real focal point of everything you are seeing, what led to the point where the chain-of-command voted with their feet in the face of their superiors orders.
And the fact that the important members of his chain of command were the ones to do it, the guys Ferrando knew he could count on in a fight. They were getting fed up with acts they were being ordered to do.
To me, this addresses an earlier episode, where Ferrando told the men that they would earn "battle honors." He misplaced the value of the invasion from liberating a country to "what can we get to earn a name for ourselves?"
That is not thinking with your subdorinates survivalability in mind. That is thinking with your own ambition in mind.
> Does any one else here who served in the Marine Corps
> find it a little out of the realm of reality when it
> comes to portraying of these officers except one as a
> complete retard.
> I'm not an officer but I have been long enough in
> the Corps to know who ever advised on this show is
> s either full of it, or simply a bitter no good
> Marine.
You think people in their right mind choose the military as a career? 
Even in the Army training environment, prior to Sept 11, there were incompetents in the recruiting and drill sergeant ranks (and those are supposed to be the best NCOs in the Army). So you could imagine that in the combat arms field, you would have a lot more such individuals.
And when you add in that this is the "whole" Marine Corps involved in this fight, the smart individuals had to be dispersed to just make things work.
What's even wierder is how the oversight for smaller unit effectiveness is the courtmartial, so when regulations and personality come into total conflict and a conflict ensues.
> Whats the most popular answer as to why enlisted
> Marines leave the Corps? IMO its piss poor leadership
> at the NCO and Officer level.
The same regardless of service, I would imagine.
> > If this series had taken just the slightest
> twist
> > towards reality, it could have worked. I get
> the
> > impression they used that doper/thief jerk that
> wrote
> > Jarheads for a combat consultant.
> >
> > If I were the producer, I would NOT admit to
> having
> > created this series anywhere withing 100 miles
> of
> > Camp Pendelton or Lejune.
>
>
> This series is based on actual events. These events
> were not "created". If you Google the names of some
> of the "characters" it would be quite an eye-opener
> for you.
A wife to one of the members of this unit remarked at the realism achieved in this series.
> Anywho, so far I love the series although Epi 3 kinda
> came off as a bit too...preachy?
I see elements of Episode 3 started in Episode 2, the Marines are beginning to really take notice of the people they are encoutering, especially the ones who are not fighting back.
You want to, because you want to make friends, not enemies of all.
As the conflict continues, they are becoming more aware of what damage is being inflicted on the land by the invasion.
> Gentleman: Menber of the 1st Recon (65-66 & 68-69.
> Delta, Alpha and H&S Co's, MOS 2531/8651. The Sgt
> Maj is over the top. It's not realistic for him to
> be chewing on the lower enlisted ranks. Normally he
> would be chewing on the Co. 1st Shirt or Gunnery
> Sgt.. Law of Gravity states that shit will roll down
> hill. Besides, if they don't shave what is the Bn
> going to do to them? Send them to Iraq? Put them on
> point? give me a break. Re: Capt America, where ae
> the staff NCO's? Someone ought to be passing the
> word to Godfather. No Bn Commander that I served
> under would allow such an over-the-top psycho to
> command a company. Sometimes, just maybe such an out
> of control officer might get wounded and have to be
> medevaced. Solves the prob.
I think you are seeing two sides of the same problem.
Army has the "NCO Support Channel." Which is the back-channel of getting information to the top if your chain of command is incompetent.
But if the top of that NCO chain-of-command makes himself unapproachable (everyone does not want to deal with the guy) then how do you relate information that there is someone in charge who is doing a bad job?
Stress is obvious in Capt America, and maybe the same for the SGM.
> Have a little problem with leaving the supply truck
> over a flat tire. Supply Sgts. dont leave anything!
> Marines generally don't have much
Because the command was more concerned with achieving glory then his men's survivability in a war zone.
> As far as the officer thing (incompetant or not), I
> would hope the likes of the 2 knucklehead captains
> are fiction and not fact. Yes, I saw plenty of
> imbicile officers, but by in large many deferred to
> their NCOs for issues requiring expertise that they
> did not have ( I know I did). However, like any
> organization, sometimes the underserving rise as well
> as the deserving.
In Hawai'i, I came across a retired Marine officer who I thought was just another hippy retired white dude.
Turns out he had enlisted back in Vietnam (Judge: "You'd look better in green then in stripes.") and went through the ranks to I think Gunny, then through the warrant officers, and then officer, finally retiring as a Major, and working intelligence.
He left before the Iraq invasion because he "saw which way the wind was blowing."
I kind of wondered why he got out still, and he later told me: "I never let the Marines change me."
This series is now putting what he said into a better perspective.
> I know Godfather's loose grip on the truth in
> reporting his units action on the airfield would have
> been extremely disappointing to me. I expected
> senior officers and NCOs to behave as I was taught,
> which is to always be accurate and truthful in your
> reporting. The blatent attempt to make himself look
> better was sickening.
The example that we set, eh?
> I was a Recon Marine and I served in Iraq. There are
> very few black marines in recon. I think I only knew
I keep thinking of the line "You never whip a Black man," and they realize what exactly joining the Marines would be like.
Being part of a boy's club is one thing, but a white boy's club is another story.
> 2! The reason is because black marines cant swim that
> well. In order to become a recon marine you have to
> pass a screening that involves alot of swimming. I
> was also a Combat Water Survival Instructor, and the
> black marines almost always had a hard time passing a
> level 4 which is required by the marine corps. As for
> being racist you will find that every where. I know
People of African heritage, some at least, tend to have very lean bodies and low body fat, and in the physically demanding environment they are in. This greatly lessons the body's boyouncy, which makes it harder for you to stay afloat in water, requiring more energy.
Then mix in factors that an African American is likely joining the Marines because of a poor background, and the access to a swimming facility or being taught to swim was likely never part of the recruits personal history.
> platoon had 2 hispanic guys in it, we would all joke
> around with each other calling each other names. That
> does not make us racist, we were all brothers... and
Where I live, 90% hispanic. On the high school swim team, two hispanic boys, five white, one korean.
> that leaves me with the officers. The officers that
> went to recon school (ARS or BRC) were pretty on the
> money with stuff. The other officers sucked.
> And for your other stupid comments about the no
> equipment and the women and children, you must have
> no idea what war is like. Your just pissed off
> because last time someone did anything about the
> F^cked Up army was how the army got its ass kicked in
> Mogadishu. Its to bad they did not show the Marines
> coming in and cleaning up the mess.
>
> Ahruga
If you look at the "Blackhawk Down" story from a bigger perspective, you'll see that it was over a hundred specially trained men penetrated a city that had radical elements in it, and an ambush was laid that nearly stopped them all dead in their tracks.
When you consider that about 20 men died, and thousands of enemy were killed, the U.S. Army came out the winner. The enemy just gained a small PR victory, which did bring to light the larger lack of aid and attention being given to Somalia.
What does the administration do?
Oh, we made a mistake. Cut and run. Let the people being victimized continue to be because the U.S. is afraid of one rebel warlord.
> I think SgtMaj. Sixta is a classic portrayal. I knew
> a MSgt just like him when I was in.
>
> "Look at me today. I only had an 8th grade education
> and today I'm a MSgt in the Marine Corps! What more
> could I ask for?" is a quote that I have never
> forgotten.
>
> I'd rank the actor playing the SgtMaj. right up there
> with Lee Ermey's performance in Full Metal Jacket.
One drill sergeant looked and sounded like Hank Hill. He had a macabre sense of humor, liked "The Crow." Real smart, decent guy.
The other drill was a skinny physical freak (his head was the thickest part of his body, and he could run two miles in 11 minutes), and he was a smoker with that raspy voice, and it took me a while to realize that he had elements of Dexter (from Cartoon Networks "Dexter's Labratory"). Sharp guy who, I bet if he wanted to, could do a DS Hartman impression easily, or come up with his own.
> The depiction of this show demeans their service. I
> find that sad. I had really hoped that I would enjoy
> this series.
The show is not depicting all Marines. It is depicting one Marine unit that has some serious flaws.
Ever recall how they said the U.S. could fight a war on two fronts? And then how they said they could only do it for one?
Guess what they mean when they talk about readiness?
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(47 of 51)
Aug 8, 2008 2:27 PM
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Even the Israelis don't believe in that ****
450 women currently serve in combat units of Israel's security forces, primarily in the Border Police.
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Posts:
38
Registered:
7/28/08
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(46 of 51)
Aug 8, 2008 3:06 AM
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AHRUGA the Marines left THEN the shit hit the fan. Everything was kosher until we left ;D
In regards to the black Marines. In all the companies I've been in there was ...about 5. Seriously. However it seemed most of the black Marines were Staff NCO's. Lifers. So i don't think its trying to make it seem like most Marines are white or hispanic but it kinda is that way.
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Posts:
5
Registered:
7/30/08
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(45 of 51)
Aug 7, 2008 10:49 PM
Rate this post:
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THE DAY A CHICK IS IN FRONT OF A MARINE RECON TEAM IS THE DAY THAT I TAKE A KNIFE AND CUT MY RECON JACK OFF MY ARM!!!!
AHRUGA
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Posts:
14
Registered:
7/29/08
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(44 of 51)
Aug 5, 2008 5:46 AM
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drluggit,
Wow....were you even there?! I mean...I'm not sure of your rank...but I can tell you as an NCO on my 2nd tour when I entered Iraq w/the 101st...I had a lot of idiot officers and NCOs.
First, my Lt's and Cpt's were my age or younger....I had a 1SG that hadn't seen a damn thing w/16 years in...and a bunch of medal crazy, combat happy commanding staff doing whatever it took to advance their career....except for one...this MSG that was retireing shortly after the invasion....
I was almost shot by Officers twice, we volunteered for missions in which we weren't equipt and laughed at and we did have a few incidents that were considered "accidental discharges" on top of the big..."ooopses". I'm telling you this show puts me right back to 2003.
You don't believe these guys...try my own personal blog about the experience....
www.myspace.com/hickdawg4
I'm a chick, but I'm telling you...we crossed the border in March...had our own share of battles with the media...and at one point, I'm pretty sure we were ahead of this Marine Recon BN......tell me we're crazy about these insubordinate officers.....
This is as real as it gets.... this show pinpoints all that is right and wrong with today's military
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Posts:
3
Registered:
7/29/08
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(43 of 51)
Aug 4, 2008 2:41 PM
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Encino was calling in a Juliet Echo November (JEN) fire mission from Steel Rain. That would be a ATACMS fire mission from an MLRS battery.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/ATACMSBlockIAUnitary/ATACMSBlockIAUnitaryPhoto1.html
You need to provide 4 things to complete a fire mission...easting, northing, altitude, and grid zone. From what Fick stated Encino didn't have the proper grid zone. I think I overheard battery confirming the bad grid zone and hence there was no fire mission. What confused me was seconds later there was a splash on the Baath Party HQ. This would have been another request for fire I guess???
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(42 of 51)
Aug 4, 2008 2:09 PM
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Roma because IMO the guys with the big guns would look at their map and could not find the spot they were supposed to be shooting at.
It would be like saying meet me at the corner of winston rd and green lane when winston and green never meet anywhere to form a corner.
--
Edited by BTDTGuy at 08/04/2008 11:10 AM PDT
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Posts:
14
Registered:
3/26/07
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(41 of 51)
Aug 4, 2008 1:49 PM
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I understand why Fick and the enlisted men didn't want encino to call in artillery. What I didn't quite understand was how Fick could be so confident after that exchange that encino's request would be declined. And how would the artillery gunners know not to fire? The company seems to be too mobile for anyone to know their location ahead of time. Is encino required to give his own location when giving the location of the target?
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(40 of 51)
Aug 4, 2008 11:30 AM
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Roma, there was 2 or 3 issues with that attempt to call in artillary that you ask about.
1. The distance of 200 meters was far to close for anything this side of those Marine about to be over run. The fire that EncinoMan attempted to call in may well have landed on top of those Marines.
2. As the Doc points out in that scene the calling in of close artillary support may have been a part of a medal hunt on the part of the Officer.
3. There was no one to call artillary in on anyway. That is what the Lt was trying to tell the Captain. His boys had already taken out the RPG team so they would have been firing at nothing.
In the end they did not care. Because they realized that EncinoMan was going to be calling in the big guns and providing wrong info. And the guys in the rear with the big guns would see that and not fire anyway.
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Posts:
14
Registered:
3/26/07
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(39 of 51)
Aug 4, 2008 11:20 AM
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Could somebody explain to me the scene where Encino is trying to call in an artillery/air strike on the "danger close" target? As I understood the scene, Fick lost concern when he realized that Encino did not know the proper protocol for doing so. Am I right? My question, how would things have played out after Encino's request was denied? Could he have not simply ordered Fick or another subordinate to tell him the proper protocol? Or would he likely have not done so to avoid looking foolish? I'd appreciate it if any of the guys in the know could speculate as to how that scenario would have played out.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(38 of 51)
Aug 1, 2008 4:47 PM
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"This isn't to say that junior soldiers can't be cavalier, boastful, crude. It means that when asked, they perform. They perform to standard, the way they were trained to do."
You mean in your experience no one fucks up at all in combat? Officers are all good? NCO's are all good?
You mean (did you read the book?) that the things that Wright wrote and have been seen on TV or read now I would bet by every single member of 1st Recon that made that trip that he made that stuff up? That it never happened?
And the entire BN has not shouted his account down in a very loud and public way?
You say you were a member of a team. What kind may I ask.
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Posts:
1,909
Registered:
6/23/08
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(37 of 51)
Aug 1, 2008 3:44 PM
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I am trying to decide how to explain this because, it's generally very hard to explain the transformation that occurs between the time you're a very junior soldier/marine and the time that you're a seasoned field officer or senior nco.
From the perspective of very junior enlisted men, and perhaps even a very junior second lieutenant, the view from the bottom may be very base.
I cannot say that, because that was not my experience. At the time we went over the burm, I was a fairly senior member of the team. As I watch the depiction of the events, I find serious disconnects.
First, I find the portrayal of the officers and ncos to be totally lacking of any professionalism. I believe that mr Wright has mistaken seriously the difference between what soldiers/marines find amusing in their off hours and the transition that occurs when the warface has to go on. When that happens, and I believe Wright fails to capture this at all, the marines/soldiers that I've been associated with have always snapped to and performed immaculately.
This isn't to say that junior soldiers can't be cavalier, boastful, crude. It means that when asked, they perform. They perform to standard, the way they were trained to do.
The depiction of this show demeans their service. I find that sad. I had really hoped that I would enjoy this series.
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