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How could Marines have limited civilian casualties when cars refused to stop at check points?
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Posts:
13
Registered:
10/10/02
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(70 of 70)
Aug 18, 2008 2:19 PM
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Ya, I'd be interested in who this guy really is, what he's doing now, and how he's handling his portrayal is the series.
Who knows, maybe he never made it home. Maybe he ended up a victim of "friendly fire".
I guess we'd both have to read to book to find out (-;
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(69 of 70)
Aug 18, 2008 12:30 PM
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IMO that Captain America guy is certifiably looney tunes.
Cpl. Person, "Is he crying?"
Sound of Cpt. America babbling on the radio.
Sgt. Colbert, "OK, he's crying now."
I wonder what the guy his character was based on is like and what he thinks of his portrayal in the series? If he was based on a real character? Guess I need to read the book ASAP.
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Posts:
67
Registered:
5/2/08
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(68 of 70)
Aug 9, 2008 4:15 PM
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> How could Marines have limited civilian casualties
> when cars refused to stop at check points?
The thing is, you cannot effectively communicate with the local population to begin with.
Now, you can utilize all your resources on hand.
And to me, I think this is where Marine training and Army training differ. To the Marines, a nighttime roadblock is "this is a place to be guarded to the last man."
To the Iraqis, they are used to: "We will do as good as we can by God's will."
If the Iraqi military is a loosely organized and run military force, and you have these roaming militant groups that existed in Iraq before and after the U.S. invasion, the people likely had no idea what to expect when the Americans attacked, and this is part of the failure of the local Iraqi government at the time.
Anyways, the Iraqi people have people firing at them all the time (apparently), and you do one of two things, run away or run for home, and pray you make it either way.
The local Iraqi military, it seems, if they had occupied a town or road block, their warning fire would have likely included a lot of sporadic fire in the general direction of the vehicle.
The American forces practiced coordinated direct fire, which included all guns being aimed on target beforehand, and this includes small arms (m-16's, SAWs since they still had ammo for) and then if they felt they could spare it or felt the threat was that severe, used some of the anti-vehicle/emplacement weaponary (203 grenade, M-60).
Now, what they could have done:
1. Was had sharp-shooters dispersed to each "face" of the roadblock and at the approach of any vehicle, tell him to aim for the tires and if he could not get a shot, the engine block, then the driver, and then finally anywhere else to stop the vehicle from moving.
2. Then, disperse my 203s, SAWs, and m-60's and any other ordinance at my disposal.
3. Instruct that for vehicle traffic, if it appears civilian, signal with a light of some sort, keep a spotlight on target (if possible). If the vehicle does not stop (or you have no lighting appartus), order tracer rounds (which there likely are for nighttime use) fired before the vehicle. Give the vehicle a moment to respond. If it does not change it's behavior, and the sharp-shooter dissabling shots are ineffective, treat the vehicle as hostile and open up.
4. If a vehicle turns around and leaves, ensure it completely leaves the area (which your forward listening/observation post should be able to observe).
5. If a vehicle immediately stops, try to communicate with the vehicle's driver to leave the vehicle and proceed to interrogate (interview) the driver and seek to confirm elements of the "story" the driver gives you with the passengers and items within the vehicle to confirm there is no enemy combatants, weapons, electronic equipment of any nature beneficial to the enemy, explosives, secret documentation and/or messages, etc. If the nothing of the sort is found, send the vehicle and it's occupants on their way.
6. If it slows but does not appear to stop, fire more warning shots. If it does not change it's behavior, order sharp-shooter to aim for tires, then follow up with rest of small arms if the vehicle cannot be stopped.
Oh wait, getting off point.
But that is my key point above, better use of your resources, especially considering how they were are limited on resources to begin with. They wasted a lot of ammunition on people too foolish to know any better, it seems.
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/21/08
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(67 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 1:43 PM
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I am going to say he cant hang. I have been reading the book along with the series and doing my best not to read ahead. Personal opinion is he is going to get relieved
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Posts:
10
Registered:
3/3/02
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(66 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 1:32 PM
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BTDT Guy is dead on with his post # 58.
If Capt America wanted to persue it he could have that Sgt's ass.
But I think it may have cured him of his fear and rants.
THink about why he cries when burying those weapons. He lost his troops confidence and knows it. Now he is scared for his life on both sides. I bet you see a change in him or him go crazy.
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Posts:
14
Registered:
3/26/07
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(65 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 1:06 PM
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Off topic. Are Charms squares still available in stores? I can only find them on line. I haven't seen these since the 1970s and had forgotten about them till now. Does anyone know why they are considered bad luck, and does this superstition span the entire armed forces or is it peculiar to the Marine Corps?
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(64 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 12:59 PM
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I'm diggin the sarcasm of Cpl. Person. That scene with the pog chaplain was f'ing hilarious. That dude is one sarcastic m'f'er. LOL
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Posts:
4
Registered:
8/7/08
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(63 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 6:37 AM
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The only answer to the question of reducing civilian casualties in this case is simply not be there in the first place. It's a war. The enemies and "friendlies" look alike. If i were a soldier in that situation Im lighting up anything that is coming at me. Its me or them and I dont want it to be me. This is true in all war at all times essentially. This is why the question of going to war in the first place is such a grave one. Once there, innocents will die.. Ameican kids and young men/women will die. This is why our leaders must ultimately be held responsible for the actions of results of their decisions to initiate combat. Pick your battles and win them. You better choose correctly..cause you are gonna have alot of blood on your hands. Make no mistake..there are good causes and there are vague causes to fight for. As a military person, you dont have the luxury of choosing your battles, you go where you are told and when you are told and you do what you are trained to do.
America is a great nation. It's positives far out weigh its negatives. But I genuinely ask the soliders, active, inactive. etc....how do you resolve the issue of losing your autonomy in making such decisions? Sure its a no brainer if someone is out there committing genocide....however If your Commander in Chief orders you into battle for a a cause you figure to be BS...you are stuck.
On the other hand.....what's the alternative? A military comprised of hunderds of thousands of soldiers that decide which battles they will fight? that aint gonna work either.
i guess im torn. i want to do my part for the country. i love the concept of being part of a team that the military affords...i have no idea how id respond in a life or death situation but who does? until they are faced with one...yet i just cant get my brain around the possibility of having to fight for some possible BS political cause and getting my limbs blown off for it
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Posts:
2
Registered:
8/6/08
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(62 of 70)
Aug 7, 2008 5:45 AM
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Thanks for the answers to both BTDTGuy, Sportsbike, and Cpl. Sandoval. I wasn't thinking so much of Doc (due to the reasons you mention), but definitely was thinking of the other two examples BTDTGuy mentions.
Here is another totally ignorant question from me for past and present Marines: one of the background details in the last episode concerns the loss of 1st Recon's battle colors with the lost supply truck. Exactly how does this make the members of 1st Recon feel? To what extent is this an issue which the rank and file Marine would get really worked up about and take really seriously, and to what extent would it be the kind of thing they would be more cynical about and that the officers would make a big deal about for symbolic purposes?
Anyways, I hope any Marine who has spent time over there continues to post frequently here-- I'm learning a lot from you...
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Posts:
1
Registered:
8/6/08
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(61 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 5:46 PM
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when the enemy easily blends into the population and is willing to die for their cause you can never stop innocent casualties from happening no matter how many illum rounds tracers and barb wire checkpoints to stop them.
Orah Hard Luck Chuck 1/1
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Posts:
10
Registered:
3/3/02
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(60 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 10:19 AM
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How should the Captain have gotten feedback?
By talking to his SNCO's and NCO's. If not by talking to members individually.
An NCO's job is to train the troops, a SNCO's job is to train the young Officers and the NCO's.
You see that with the relationship with the Gunny and LT Fick.
Noticed he didnt go over to him after he blew up at the troops for telling the Lt they have his back. He knows the Lt will come to him when and if he wants and his job is to keep it together.
Yes some zero's are retards, and so are a lot of troops. But it is true you can't question orders. All you can do is execute those orders to the best of your ability. Now granted if I was ordered into a suicide situation I would not follow, nor would I shoot the dogs just like Capt America ordered.
This is just my opinion and experiences as a Marine. I have told an officer to wake up or he is going to kill us all, and he listened. You gotta remember he is fresh out of college and put in charge of people's lives. They are learning too.
--
Edited by Sportbike2 at 08/06/2008 8:07 AM PDT
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Posts:
2
Registered:
7/15/08
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(59 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 8:31 AM
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> > More stupid civilian questions....
> > 2. Any ideas of what Meesh meant by "Arabs
> don't
> > grieve the same way you do"? At first I thought
> this
> > was just another example of Meesh telling the
> marines
> > what he believed they wanted to hear, but it
> seemed
> > like the writers had deeper motives for
> inserting
> > this line.
>
> He merely meant that the death rituals and customs
> practiced by Muslims are far different than the two
> big western faiths, Judaism and Christianity. You
> have the time limit, the proper cleansing of the
> body, the burial of the body with the head facing the
> direction of Mecca, most importantly however is that
> immediately after the burial has finished that
> judgement begins on that person. By leaving his
> daughter behind, he would have ensured that she
> suffer until what most Christians refer to as
> Armageddon/rapture. Since death is a transitional
> phase for muslims, the time between physical death
> and rapture is a place of limbo, if the buried person
> passes the first part of judgement he/she will see
> heaven, and that time in limbo isn't painful.
>
> But not being buried prevents the first phase of
> judgement, and therefore somewhat damns the soul.
>
> His concern has nothing to do with the material
> world, he wants to make sure that his daughter won't
> suffer in the afterlife. It's actually a poignant
> moment because it shows ignorance in muslim faith,
> not just in troops but also in the audience watching
> this series. People are more accustomed to the
> scenes of women wailing, etc. which is part of the
> ritual in some countries, but burial is a necessity.
>
>
> Think about all the concern that guy had, his person,
> perhaps his son, was bleeding he himself might have
> been injured, his country is in a state of war, no
> one knows whats happening politically. But faith
> trumps all of that. It's saying something about
> those Iraqi civilians and their priorities in life.
>
>
> Many of the troops deal with the morality of killing
> children when they are faced with their corpses, but
> no consideration is given to what happens to them
> after life is over. For those who are religious its
> a concept that is understood, but in modern society
> we don't necessarily put as much stock in the ritual
> aspect because of the difference in faiths.
> America's judeo-christian roots are flexible and few
> w follow them to the letter. But in Muslim societies
> its very different. In both liberal and conservative
> muslim societies.
>
> --
> Edited by kptiff at 08/04/2008 7:14 PM PDT
great post. quoted and bumped for all to consider more deeply.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(58 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 8:15 AM
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"that have already been made about Encino Man and Cpt. America, but I still don't see how the supposed insubordination from lesser ranks would be tolerated in a face to face basis. Part of what is going "
This is not nearly as blatant as people may feel. Look again at the episodes. How many times is a Marine or Doc bitching or being disrespectful directly to a superior. I can maybe count on 3 fingers.
The Doc gets a pass. He was asked by a superior 4 times for an answer before he gave one. And its not like he is a real military person anyway. : ) He complied with a request from a senior in front of witnesses who would have backed him up.
Lt Fick took the radio from Encino man as he tried to call in artillary. Fick will pay a price. He has already been dressed down by Godfather in front of all the other Officers. He is being investigated at some level. He will soon leave the Marine Corps.
The Sgt that told Captain American in private that he would fock him up if he did not stop shooting. He could have hung I believe for saying that. Instead the Captain folds and then buries his weapons in the sand.
Other than those 3 times can anyone else remember any direct disrespect to a superior? Most of it is grumbling among themselves.
Now think back to the exploding stove incident. If that had happened back at Pendelton likely there would have been corrective steps taken. Maybe a NJP for at least a few. Restriction for the rest maybe. But the Corps and Godfather needs these guys. Without them he has no war to fight.
And the conduct of the war is weighing more on their minds than a NJP for an exploding stove.
--
Edited by BTDTGuy at 08/06/2008 6:19 AM PDT
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Posts:
1
Registered:
8/6/08
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(57 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 3:35 AM
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Reg' the punishment for insubordination, these things do get delt with but usually in the rear not while on the field, it all depends on the on how bad it is. While i was in iraq during this period of this story(btw its all based on real occourances and inst just a show) a certain team leader for a machine gun squad refused to fire his weapon and was releaved of his billit and then was delt with once we got to the rear. You gotta keep in mind that they are not in a place such as the officers of the wire whom go back to their office after every patrol and have time to deal with such matters. One thing i have learned while in the marines is that while your training certain officers and nco's may seem shit hot while training but you sometimes end up seeing their true colors when out in the shit.
Cpl. Sandoval
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Edited by MataHaji at 08/06/2008 12:36 AM PDT
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Posts:
2
Registered:
8/6/08
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(56 of 70)
Aug 6, 2008 2:27 AM
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I don't ever participate in these kind of things, nor do I really intend to that much in the future. I do want to note that I have learned more from threads like this one about this marvelous series, whether it be about Islamic burial rites to the recollections of those who have served in the Marines, than I have from most things. Keep posting-- it makes it all better.
I recognize the points that have already been made about Encino Man and Cpt. America, but I still don't see how the supposed insubordination from lesser ranks would be tolerated in a face to face basis. Part of what is going on here is something we have seen before if you are a fan of The Wire; Generation Kill is made by the same people, and the cynical sense of having to obey the orders of those who are making bad decisions was one of the main points of that show. But even in the endlessly incompetent Baltimore Police Dept of The Wire, the rebels got punished; here, in the Marines, where I thought such things would be taken even more seriously, some of the rebels express themselves openly to their superior officers with seemingly no repercussions. Maybe because time is compressed and it is too soon within the ambit of the series for repercussions to hit those involved? Anyways, someone who knows-- what's up with this?
And those of you who have experience over in Iraq-- keep posting-- it is one of the few ways in which we hear your voice.
Oh yeah, to the guy writing about Wheatus and "Teenage Dirtbag"-- sorry dude, the guy drives an IROC. As in: an 80s Camaro. As nice as it might be to see the hononymic connection to Iraq, the Camaro actually fits the context better...
--
Edited by grioir at 08/05/2008 11:28 PM PDT
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Edited by grioir at 08/05/2008 11:29 PM PDT
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Edited by grioir at 08/05/2008 11:30 PM PDT
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