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Do you think the highly-trained First Recon Marines were properly used in the Iraqi invasion?
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Posts:
67
Registered:
5/2/08
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(40 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Sep 3, 2008 1:18 PM
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> >>>I watched the scene on the bridge several times
> and couldn't quite figure out what happened in the
> radio scene.
>
> >>>I couldn't ID who had the radio at the time, or
> who relieved him of it.
>
> >>>Would someone please explain exactly what went
> down there and exactly who was involved?
>
> The Batallion XO Major Eckloff takes the radio from
> Captain Schwetje (Encino Man).
>
> The funny thing about the scene is that Encino Man
> needed the Major to help him figure out that the best
> way to move the Hummer was to push it real hard.
I almost wonder if the XO was trying to make Schwetje expose himself, McGraw, and Greico to enemy fire, and thus relieve the Recon Battalion of some "dead weight." 
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
5
Registered:
7/28/08
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(39 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 25, 2008 9:18 PM
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Agreed Neet. All of our contributions are equally important. The beer idea sounds good too.
other than that I have really enjoyed the series and the discussions on these boards. Takes me back a few years for sure.
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Posts:
67
Registered:
6/13/05
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(38 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 25, 2008 1:16 AM
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Wow BTDT and artyman blew this way out of proportion. I was not bragging about my branch or putting down combat arms. I was originally questioning why there was no officer quality control at the brigade/battalion leve.
And artyguy, you too are a FORMER Army CPT. So good riddance to you too. What was your story? Looks like we both got out when our service was up. Glad I served, and it has served me well.
But boys at the end of the day the left side of the uniform says US Army or US Marines. I have had these discussions with combat arms officers over many a drink. And they are heated, but in the end we are on the same team. So both of you guys grab a beer and chill!
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Posts:
5
Registered:
7/28/08
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(37 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 21, 2008 9:42 PM
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I think neetdude has a severe case of penis envy. BDTD is dead on, neet started this by devaluing the service of non REMFs. I would never denegrate anyone who served regardless of what they did. However it is fitting that like in GK the rear folks who find themselves where they shouldn't be (with the killers) they often bumble and stumble their way around. From this perspective I would put Captain America and Encino Man in the category of the REMF officers who think they have to put someone down because they know, deep down inside in places where even they refuse to look, they are inadequate in the skills of bringing mayhem upon our enemies. When it comes down to it they should leave the heavy lifting to those suited to it and keep my canteen filled and ammo ready.
As far as CPTs getting out or whatever, if the like of you are the ones getting out good riddance. One less Captain America shooting off their mouth (or AK) getting in the way of real warriors doing their job.
By the way, FA soldiers serve WITH Infantry and Armor units as FSOs, so your 25KM behind crap doesn't fly.
And I would guess that his repeated admonishments to "suck my dick" has something to do with his own latent tendancies. But I won't ask so you don't have to tell.
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Posts:
867
Registered:
3/13/08
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(36 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 19, 2008 10:50 PM
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You know, I'd have to be one DUMB MOTHERFUCKER not to interpret the end of this episode (on the bridge) as an indictment on the general stupidity of military officers in general, and the entire chain of command in specific.
A Major, called into action to remind a Capt to merely do his duty, who thusly reacts as mere plebe. Where were the NCOs? And Capt America thereafater? Please! Is THIS where blindly following orders leads you? Someone shoot somebody, cause they damn sure deserve it.
DaN
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(35 of 40)
Aug 18, 2008 12:09 PM
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From what I remember, I thought the moral of that expression was not to kick something that already has nothing to lose, because it will come after you balls to the wall.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(34 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 18, 2008 8:07 AM
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Neet you can SAD for all I care. You are the one that started this shitfest. You are the one bragging how you as a supply pogue are smarter than the grunts. How you picked your trade based on what it can do for you post military. How just because you attended some school you are almost like a grunt. Cool By Assoication. Good for you pogue.
We both know. You wanted nothing of the hard life.
Just thank your soft pampered ass that there are guys willing to ruck up all the way. Warriors. You may even know some.
You look down on the fighters and tell folks how much smarter you are. As if anyone gives a fock or cares.
CBA thats what you got.
Focking pogues. Hanging with the chicks, other pogues, and the remf arab truckdrivers telling your I am almost like a grunt stories. We have seen your scene already in GK.
Where you were promptly made fun of for all the world to see.
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Posts:
38
Registered:
7/28/08
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(33 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 18, 2008 7:22 AM
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I agree, and also if you speak to most Iraqis they are very thankful for removing Saddam. Our interpreter was jailed because he was using a satelite phone and Saddam's men thought he was spying for the U.S. They excuted one of his friends every day. When his day was up, who opened the door to his cell? U.S. Marines. They gave him food, water and even some money to aid him on his recovery. That's why he was an interpreter because he felt he needed to repay his debt to America for saving his life from a tyrant.
Also Neetdude and all you guys, blue on blue, cease fire! Understand that when you're in combat arms you have this ego bestowed upon you that you don't need anyone's help and that if youre a POG than you don't do shit and have it easy. Sure a lot of the time, they aren't on foot patrols with a lot of gear waiting to get blown up or shot. But if you ever eat an MRE, drink bottled water, get fuel for the humvees, or even get that muuuuuch deserved and needed mail, you can thank a non combat arms MOS. They help supply the things necessary to keep your morale high. We're all a big team!
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Posts:
10
Registered:
7/28/08
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(32 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 18, 2008 5:31 AM
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Looking back I can still say yes it was the right thing to do to liberate Iraq. Saddam was a threat to the entire middle east region. He violated most of the UN Rules he aggreed to abide to after Desert Storm. He was working around the UN Sanctions with France, Germany, Russia , and others. Rather than comply with UN Inspectors he hid or lied about his military abilities. His own people said then he wanted to get nuclear weapons. We didn't find out till after we invaded that he didn't have this capability. (of course we can never be sure how much got out of Iraq to Syria. Turkey prevented us from sealing the Northern routes during the invasion. I suspect that is where the missing HEI is located.) I always find this part especially amusing (why is it the job of the US to do "whatever"), because we are the only ones willing and have the ability to get it done. The US is the last remaining superpower. France, Germany, and Russia would have had no problem letting Saddam have full power back in Iraq. We saw plenty of equipment and ammo dated after Desert Storm from those countries in Iraq. Popularity in the US is based on the Mediums that provide new and entertainment to the people. These Mediums are extremely liberal and hate George W. Bush. How much news to you get from top 3 networks about the success of the surge in Iraq? Very little. They are pushing their candidate into the White House, why tell the people oh by the way the surge is working. Politics run all wars. It was politics that said in WWII to bail out the UK first and Germany was a greater threat than Japan. Our Main Mission in Iraq was to get Saddam out of power. We did that completely and with terrible resolve. This is the part of the Mission that is "Mission Accomplished". It is much more difficult to occupy a country and turn around thousands of years of neglect. Besides we tried to occupy Iraq and be politically correct doing it. That was probably our biggest mistake. We should have developed a "Marshall Plan" to occupy and rebuild the country.
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Posts:
13
Registered:
10/10/02
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(31 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 17, 2008 11:22 PM
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Ok, I couldn't ID the Exec; don't seem to see much of him.
But why is the Captain on the radio? Isn't there a Radioman?
Also, who was the guy freaking out beside the Captain? Who was he shouting too? I thought he was the radioman.
Sounds to me like Encino Man was having a panic attack and just needed someone to get him focused.
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Posts:
67
Registered:
6/13/05
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(30 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 17, 2008 9:53 PM
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BTDTguy and artyman can suck my dick. FA is a wanna be combat arms branch. Oooo stay 25km out of the action and shoot from a far. You see LESS action than supply units. Yep I went to Airborne and Rigger school, so I can through your gay artillery pieces out of airplanes when you are far enough away.
Meanwhile my unit was Direct Support of Heavy Tank divisions. We were refueling tanks on the move on the line. I was the division fuel officer for 2ID in Korea, and believe me fuckface...there was no sitting in the A/C doing nothing.
I went through ROTC, but in my Basic Course, there were a lot of West Pointers. They said at USMC there is a lot of pressure to go Combat Arms, most of the top of the class choose supply, military intelligence or medical. And now I am out and the military experience has served me well.
Do a google search for "Captains getting out of the Army or the service". That is the main issue. Combat Arms and other branches a like. Captains are leaving in DROVES. The ones that are left...like Encino Man are leading units.
When we were commissioned, they told us the promotion percentage of CPTs to MAJ is like 75%...that was the first cut-off. My year group..YG97....97% CPTs to MAJ. Yep damn near everyone. I saw the names on that list, and I know some of them barely made it out of their first platoon without being relieved.
Anyway where is this notion that supply units are "safe"? Gee having a bunch of food, fuel, water, ammo, etc etc doesn't make me a fucking target does it? Anyway, BTDT guy lick my balls.
Peace!
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Posts:
183
Registered:
11/19/05
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(29 of 40)
Re: Part 5: A Burning Dog
Aug 17, 2008 7:38 PM
Rate this post:
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>>>I watched the scene on the bridge several times and couldn't quite figure out what happened in the radio scene.
>>>I couldn't ID who had the radio at the time, or who relieved him of it.
>>>Would someone please explain exactly what went down there and exactly who was involved?
The Batallion XO Major Eckloff takes the radio from Captain Schwetje (Encino Man).
The funny thing about the scene is that Encino Man needed the Major to help him figure out that the best way to move the Hummer was to push it real hard.
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Posts:
13
Registered:
10/10/02
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(28 of 40)
Aug 17, 2008 6:19 PM
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Hate to seem dense, but I didn't get "the burning dog" analogy.
Would someone please explain it, again?
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Posts:
13
Registered:
10/10/02
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(27 of 40)
Re: What happened on the bridge
Aug 17, 2008 6:18 PM
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I watched the scene on the bridge several times and couldn't quite figure out what happened in the radio scene.
I couldn't ID who had the radio at the time, or who relieved him of it.
Would someone please explain exactly what went down there and exactly who was involved?
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Posts:
67
Registered:
5/2/08
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(26 of 40)
Aug 16, 2008 3:00 PM
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> Thank God Nate is there though, or there wouldn't be
> a Generation Kill story to tell it seems. They would
> all be bones in the desert. I also LOVED LOVED
> LOVED how he shut up that dumb ass GSGT who took
> every battery in the battalion it seemed. There is
> weird "dynamic" between LTs and top enlisted,
> especially above E-8. You technically outrank
> them...but that 1SG works for the commander, i.e.
> your boss. He was only a GSG, and wasn't even the
> Company 1SG, and he was calling Nate by his first
> name, and talking down to him....BOY oh BOY I would
> have lit his ass up just like Nate did. Way to go
> Nate!
For the Marines, I have heard from a few firsthand sources that once you reach Gunney, it is expected for that NCO to have a special relationship to Second and First Lieutenants (O-1, O-2). Like, they are expected to train and aid them, keep them in line. Make sure they are doing their job right, that sort of thing.
And yes, that GSG was crossing the line, and doing a disservice to his whole platoon by not keeping them supplied.
I have started "putting myself into" some of the roles, and am utterly confounded at how the leadership is falling apart, and that is having a detrimental impact on the morale of the rest of the unit, and leading to the various problems they keep encountering.
> As a former soldier and as a civilian who supported 1
> marine div. in OIF I have to disagree with the
> comment of "Neetdude". The difference between the
> USMC and ARMY is night and day. Especially when it
> comes to officer's. Capt. America and Encino man are
> truly in lines when thing's i saw from officer's in
> the marines. In saying that I have served with some
> Army officer's who are equally screwed up. Several
> times while in Bosnia i drove into minefield because
> my LT. couldn't read a map! The same LT. also cause 2
> soldier's to lose 75% of their hearing for life
> because he could figure out the minimum safe distance
> of a controlled blast. Was the officer relieved?
> Nope.. Did an SFC. pull him aside and tell him to
> unf@#k himself! oh yes!!!! I have seen Army officer's
> relieved of their duties but didn't see any USMC
> officer's suffer for their mistakes.
I had a Staff Sergeant supervisor (one-on-one watch duty, so just two of us sitting there for twelves hours at a stretch) who told how he was going to recieve his SFC promotion. He was with a special forces unit and they were doing a training mission in a desert region, and the lieutenant leading the group started giving instructions. My supervisor told the guy he would get people hurt/killed with his plan. The officer did not want to listen, so the supervisor punched him, knocked him out.
They tied up the officer, left him in a shady spot, went off and completed the mission, then returned, untied the guy, and went back home. My supervisor, to get him around the "problem" he had caused, they gave him his SFC rank, then stripped him of it so he was back at SSG.
This same supervisor convinced me to trust him, that he would help me get promoted. A year after my fiance moved away (complaining that I was "not the same man" she fell in love with), I realized that this man did not have my best interests at heart.
> Believe me I did not say that it is impossible to
> have officers like that..just not in my experience.
> It also has a lot to do with the kind of folks who
> ho go into Infantry/Recon units. When an officer is
> assessed, they pick the branch they want. Officers
> like Nate, i.e. intelligent officers, etc are an
> anomaly in the combat arms. They usually pick
> Medical Fields or other fields. Combat Arms were
> always known in selection as "What you got if you
> didn't get your first choice"
>
> I had pick of what I wanted, and I chose
> Quartermaster/Supply, because there was more career
> choices and assignments at the company grade level
> (which is why a lot of INF officers do branch detail)
> and it was intellectually challenging running
> logistics. I did the Airborne/Rigger thing, so you
> POG haters can suck my dick. All the combat arms
> dudes I supplied didn't excite me with their
> intelligence. It is more about the "look" with
> combat arms officers...more so than substance.
> Encino man looks like a physically capable officer,
> , but he is mentally retarded. Same with CPT America.
Agreed on the range of quality of leadership in the military, regardless of the branch of service.
To me, what we should be seeing is more of the top of non-commissioned (NCO) leadership stepping in to help, and especially in making the commissioned officers (CO) do the right thing. Or, to put it in a better example: A good NCO can do his job of leading his unit and making sure they are doing the right thing (i.e. staying alive), and only need to talk to his commanding officer (CO) when he needs to deal with elements outside of his control.
So if he needs air support, he can tell his CO what he "thinks" should be done, and the CO should have enough "faith" in his NCO in charge (NCOIC) to do as he says. If the second lead vehicle gets stuck in a pothole, the NCOIC should be the first out of his humvee, running to the humvee and assessing what to get it out (grabbed a tow line and hooked it up to third vehicle, not exposed the leadership of the company to enemy fire).
I think this is how the Army would have done things differently.
> To the top:
>
> Probably not, but beside the point. As
> Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld correctly assessed, field
> commanders will follow orders, regardless of the
> ideology/qualifications of those who gave them.
> Almost funny in retrospect, isn't it?
The vast majority of German military officers during WWII would agree with that assessment, I bet.
> Perhaps that's the TRUE point of this whole series?
> Idiots at the top gave ideologically ill-advised and
> d brazenly politically motivated orders, commanders
> at all levels dutifully obeyed them, and junior
> officers and enlisted griped and complained, but
> nevertheless, obeyed them as well, often to their own
> detriment.
I think the TRUE point of this series can be summed up by the statement Colbert told Rollingstone: "Write it as you see it." And that was episode two, and one of the first encounters with the civilian population the recon unit had.
> If you've never served, the previous paragraph pretty
> much sums up a military career, regardless of level.
> Read it to your kids before they join, just so they
> y know "wha's up" before hand. No doubt, there will
> be more Bush/Cheney/et als in the future.
I do a series of videos on Youtube called "Why you should join the military?" and give the goods and bads about joining, what to expect, how the military can help you, what things to watch out for in handling difficult people you work around.
And I thank my lucky stars when a friend introduced me to Dr. Wayne Dyer. He said, "Difficult people are not put on earth as obstacles to hinder you, but as challenges for you to become a better person." (But that is when you are stuck in non-combat areas. For combat, listen to the veterans and experts.)
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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