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What could American forces have done to make the Iraq invasion more successful?
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Posts:
66
Registered:
5/2/08
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(26 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Sep 3, 2008 3:26 PM
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It was glory chasing.
People seeking to feather their caps with "close fire missions" and earn combat decorations.
Because that is what gets you promoted.
And the higher up you get, the more distant you get from the front line troops, and what they are facing each day.
I was thinking that, you basically have a guy who sits at the CP, looks at his Area of Responsibility (AOR) and thinks about what would be a good mission. Writes it up, has a junior officer, or a senior NCO, to lead the mission, and if things turn "ugly," well, that means more people get to be involved, more people get to earn distinction.
Ultimately, it started becoming, to me, that the U.S. military was sitting on Iraq, and bored leadership, instead of nation building, went "hostile hunting." And as a result, a lot of lives got ruined under tank treads, humvee exhaust, and spent 5.56mm shell casings.
And don't get me started on disbanding the Iraqi military....
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
1,918
Registered:
3/13/08
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(25 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 31, 2008 9:55 PM
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Sky,
The higher you rise up the tree , the more "buy in" you have to the plan. Isn't that always the rub?
After all, this ain't rocket science, its just Rebublican shit, as usual.
DaN
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Posts:
66
Registered:
5/2/08
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(24 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 29, 2008 12:03 PM
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And what about the senior command and leadership?
Why were they so set on conquering Iraq so quickly?
As the number of civilian casualties started going up, if I was in charge, I would have slowed my advance and started asking down the chain of command for what is going on and how to cut down on these casualties.
The amount of innocent and unwarranted civilian casaulties I saw has made this Soldier royally pissed off at the military leadership.
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Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
14
Registered:
7/29/08
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(23 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 26, 2008 4:54 AM
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You all bring up valid points about the war....
I'm not sure that the "American Forces" Could have done anything. I mean, we went in without a plan, sat there for about 6 weeks, they told us it's over, we packed our shit up like we were leaving, then all of a sudden they moved us deeper into Iraq, all the way to Turkey basically.... So, those higher up officers and government officials may have some book smarts, but they sure the heck don't have street smarts.
As for the rebuilding, I agree....trained forces to attack aren't very good at PR stuff....but, we continue to get attacked, so we're going to be there a while....get used to it....
A correction though...the U.S. still has some forces in Bosnia on rotation....so we're not out of there yet.
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Posts:
1,918
Registered:
3/13/08
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(22 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 7:59 PM
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Very little American military forces could have done to improve this cluster-fuck, as this series amply demonstrates. Marines (and Army, AF, and Navy) are trained and equipped to destroy shit - that's their reason for being.
"Nation-building," as the young, dumb, and full of cum GWB said, prior to his election in 2000, ain't their bag.
The complete immasculation and marginalization of the State Department, is the subject of numerous books critical of the war effort, the most notable of which were Bob Woodward's.
Regardless, the idea that highly specialized invading combat troops would somehow revert 180 degrees and become highly specialized "nation builders" would be preposterous to all but a complete fucking idiot/ideologue. As chance would have it, we had three in all of the critical decision making posts - Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.
Ain't THAT a bitch!
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Posts:
27
Registered:
8/10/08
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(21 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 5:46 PM
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Great plan,but with all the Harvard, Yale graduates in policy positions how come nothing close to it materialized?
The milatary successfully invated, but what about the aftermath??
I almost wonder if the invasion was planed and executed in such a way that guranteed long term or permanent military presence of the US overthere? Perhaps, I am being to cynical, but how can they have done such monumental overisights? It is not as if the US didn't have experience how to do this from Bosnia and farther from WWII.
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Posts:
66
Registered:
5/2/08
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(20 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 3:19 PM
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> What could American forces have done to make the Iraq
> invasion more successful?
1. Not invaded.
2. Used the intelligence that they knew Saddam and his ways of traveling, and the fact that he never really slept in the same place twice towards the end of his reign (to begin with, before we were engaged in a "war like relationship" with Iraq since the 1992 invasion) not to mention they knew about and could identify about 4 or more of his body doubles.
3. Staged either an assasination (in which they make it look like a local affairs thing, CBS "The Unit" I believe is very accurate of the capabilities of the U.S Special Forces) or a smash-and-grab operation where Saddam happens to either be attending, or driving to, and all of a sudden, all these people appear, stop the convoy, and he finds himself taken into American custody, in his own country.
4. While the international community screams outrage over the action, Saddam Hussein is held in Gitmo Bay, instead of hundreds to thousands of other Arabs, Persians, Moslims, Muslism, Islamist, Jihadist who may not have been interested in attacking America. Who cares about one dictator being held accountable for his actions, history wise?
5. U.S. Forces are prepped for a possible police to rebellion-suppression staging around Iraq.
6. As the international community is suddenly paying all this attention to Iraq, the country becomes flooded with reporters (for the first time, un-restricted since there is no authority, Saddam's second in command is a Christian, a minority and thus incapable of establishing any authority between the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.
7. Kurds, essentially autonomous for the better part of a decade, and having to fend off Turkish aggression for a splinter sect of popution that is not receiving much media attention, may or may not break off and form own nation on own accord.
8. The Iraqi military, not prepared for the sudden turn of events, and still paid, is prepared to handle turmoil; maybe some units are deployed in populated areas (as usual) as a show of force and to let businesses know they can continue business as normal.
9. Iraqi government, suddenly becoming aware of the international media presence, and freedom, it gives them, as well as the possibility for foriegn investment, begins staging a haphazard media campaign, and POSSIBLY announces a democratic vote, at which point a Bathist party member is put into office.
10. Violence erupts in Iraq.
Rewind!
9. Iraq decides to stage a democratic vote, invites the U.N., which supplies a fair number of U.S. troops, to Iraq to oversee a peacful change-over of power.
10. Some minor violence ensues from the election but is quickly quelled by the present Allied forces.
11. Iraq, in 2003, is suddenly the model of democracy in the Middle East.
12. Iran and Saudi Arabia subsequently begin funneling insurgents into Iraq, and try to engage in sporadic attempts at secretarian violence, which has nominal impact as each community gets a taste of it and quickly does not like it.
13. American influence leads to "sister communities" with U.S. cities where people exchange young leaders to learn and help build new community opportunities in foriegn communities and take that knowledge home with them. (Could potentially lead to future business opportunities between the U.S. and Iraq that benefit both nations.)
(Can you understand why I put that last bit in?)
--
Sky
http://www.youtube.com/user/skyanimal
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Posts:
14
Registered:
3/26/07
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(19 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 1:48 PM
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Was that encino man that patterson attacked during the football game? I remember in the book's epilogue that patterson was disciplined for a confrontation with another marine, but I don't remember it being encino. I also don't remember the confrontation between Ray and Rudy. I've loaned out my copy of the book so I can't look it up right now.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
8/25/08
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(18 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 11:59 AM
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Keep in mind this series was based on a book written now over 5 years ago. Any embedded reporter with any unit could have done so. The fact that 'Generation Kill' and Nate Fick's 'One Bullet Away' synched up so well is rather extraordinary.
The American and British invasion of Mesopotamia went extraordinarily well. The occupation however was a disaster. This doesn't reflect negatively on the troops. It was the job of the civilian leadership to provide everything needed. The plan the US had was worse than no plan and only time will tell.
The military if you have ever served is a tremendous top heavy organization. But every commander is only as good as those under him or her. Incompetence is not generally punished but neither is it rewarded. As long as Godfather kept the lid on the unit would continue to function. That's why no severe actions were taken at the time.
Finally beneath the facade of bravado these men and women are still human. More than 4,000 and counting have died for you. Many more have sustained horrible injuries all for you. In addition tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, been injured and displaced. Remember all of this was done in the good name of the United States. Saddam is gone. Only time will tell what's left.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(17 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 11:41 AM
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"I was quoting Shoup"
Gotcha.
Any relation to General David Shoup?
Its been far to long since I read the book.
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/30/08
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(16 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 11:01 AM
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BTDT,
I was quoting Shoup, who was with 1st Recon in OIF. The comments about "luck", "inept enemy", lack of "intensity" in combat, etc. are his, not mine.
Bearing in mind that what he perceived was filtered mostly thru a POG's perspective.
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Posts:
107
Registered:
6/13/05
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(15 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 25, 2008 1:04 AM
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I would say that luck is a big theme in the show. How about when Rudy almost took one in the grill, and only because he ducked to help his buddy at the last minute.
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Posts:
4
Registered:
8/24/08
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(14 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 24, 2008 11:15 PM
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They should have relied more on the experienced enlisted marines in their command! Just because you have a bachelors degree and a rank of Lt. doesn't make you an effective marine! Mistakes happen in war and in high stress areas like in an ER the only thing you can do is learn from these mistakes.
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Posts:
10
Registered:
7/28/08
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(13 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 24, 2008 11:07 PM
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American Forces are under control of it's civilian leaders and after removing Sadam in 21 days I think even our adminstarton was unaware where to go from that point. The shock and awe came back home. I saw it in OIF 2 two different fractions shooting at each other. I sat in the tower in Cedar II and could see the gun fire in the distance one shiek attacking another. We came upon civilian vehicles taking fire from Allibaba and couldn't do anything. Iraqi police stealing from unescorted trucks and people. The mistake of this GWB is not to prepare for what happens when Saddam is defeated. The invasion was successful, but the "occupation" has been a work in progress. I quoted occupation as I think our admin wanted to stay away from that word for politcal reasons. We should have done as in the past and had an occupation plan.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(12 of 26)
Re: Part 7: Bomb In The Garden
Aug 22, 2008 2:04 PM
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"he took 26 rounds in the side of his door."
B.Bob, again as far as lack of intensity in the fire fights as you surmise?
This quote above is by Sgt Kocher. And he is talking about one fire fight and one reporters door.
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