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All views welcome and should be respected.... No good guys.... No bad guys.... Just us guys... Please be respectful of others opinion.
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Posts:
144
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2/24/09
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(90 of 105)
Oct 31, 2009 1:33 PM
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" But what will happen when those right wing neo-con capitalists win another election? (and, of course they will eventually- but relax, Sonra, it probably won't be any time soon.) Just think of the power we will have given them. Think of the government contracts they enter into and the deals they will make with pharmaceutical lobbyists. Your healthcare will be in their hands someday. Is that something you want?"
As always, an interesting thought, Wax. In my fervor for the current healthcare reform in the works, I have completely overlooked this very real consequence of heightened government involvement.
"In this country, the power should belong to the people - the private sector - not to the government. We actually have very little left. We should hold on to what little power we have left for as long as we can. The only thing about this bill that causes me worry is the precedent it sets for our country in that regard."
In a democratic society what IS the government if it is NOT the people?
I believe that our government is still a mirror image of our society. (especially in a democracy) Tired of the corruption? the lobbying? the raping of the taxpayers? Well, we elect the scum that perpetuate these atrocities. We are a nation of complacence, lucky to get 40% of the population off their asses and out to the polls on any given election day.
While I fancy myself a believer in the free market, I have not fooled myself into thinking that the private sector cares about anything other than bottom lines, stock prices and cutting costs at ANY expense.(as evidenced by the exodus of US jobs and dollars overseas)
The "right" views government as a necessary evil that does not function well when it expands. I reject this. I want to see "effective" government and wish we would hold federal and local politicians to a higher standard than the current status quo. Isn't it ironic that the right criticizes "big government" but can't perform a basic function like disaster relief (Katrina) when they are the ones in control? Was that a perverted joke by the right, to actually show the American people how bad big government can truly be?
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Posts:
288
Registered:
1/30/09
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(89 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 11:50 PM
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another nonsensical rant from me, nevermind
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Edited by Myles17 at 10/31/2009 10:33 AM PDT
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Posts:
135
Registered:
8/11/09
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(88 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 10:47 PM
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No .... it isn't Waxon. I think of that anyway because of our election process and the two party politics.
I am not fooled. I was just to the point of no hope
I agree with you 100%
You have gave me something to think about.
Thank You
s
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Posts:
846
Registered:
8/13/07
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(87 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 10:35 PM
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It is my opinion that this bill is a "lie of hope" (to make reference to the analogy from my previous post). Hey, Michael Moore agrees with me on that point!
Skor, of course, I agree with what you said. I would never want anyone turned away from receiving the medical care they need. But I do not think we should begin to turn healthcare over to the government.
Look at it this way -
Many here trust the current administration to do the right thing in the best interest of all of the people. But what will happen when those right wing neo-con capitalists win another election? (and, of course they will eventually- but relax, Sonra, it probably won't be any time soon.) Just think of the power we will have given them. Think of the government contracts they enter into and the deals they will make with pharmaceutical lobbyists. Your healthcare will be in their hands someday. Is that something you want?
Morality is not a black and white concept (just ask Kolberg). Additionally, our definition of morality is always changing in this country. Just look at our past. And it will continue to change. I just don't think you can make this a "moral" argument. (BTW - I would love to expand on that topic).
Everyone agrees we need healthcare reform. The government should set guidelines about how companies can do business. They should help out where needed with assistance in a variety of forms. But they should not take the healthcare system over. I believe this bill is step in the wrong direction.
In this country, the power should belong to the people - the private sector - not to the government. We actually have very little left. We should hold on to what little power we have left for as long as we can. The only thing about this bill that causes me worry is the precedent it sets for our country in that regard.
(I also made a subtle comment about the media's abuse of their power - but that is off topic for now, I think.)
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Posts:
135
Registered:
8/11/09
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(86 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 9:03 PM
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Waxon
I would like to apologize about my response to your response to skor. It does sound rude. It was intended for skor so I apologize if you read that statement and feel I intruded. I know better than to interrupt.
Skorda is much much more articulate. I should let her speak for herself.
I would like to add ,,,the Healthcare issue is Big and Huge to me...
Rhonda
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Posts:
1,418
Registered:
4/26/08
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(85 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 7:02 PM
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I know I didn't say anything but I was reading the conversation, the only thing I have to say is, how beautiful each of you are, the way you all come back and make sure that although you may have differing opinions, and we may feel really strongly about our positions,we always come back to make sure opinions expressed are just that; opinions, not long term grudges.
I love to read it.
and I just gotta say, I love it when wax weighs in!
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Posts:
135
Registered:
8/11/09
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(84 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 4:43 PM
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Jimmy no need to apologize. But it is kind of you.
So speak your mind..
No hurt feelings here
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Posts:
2,369
Registered:
8/16/07
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(83 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 1:59 PM
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Thank you, Jimmy. That was the right thing to say.
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Posts:
3,873
Registered:
9/2/07
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(82 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 1:46 PM
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I want to take back my earlier statement about "Steaming turd". I apologize to our friends and their female sensitivities. I'm currently digesting and researching ALL references in this bill. I have 12 different screens open with things like tax law, past treaties and how things are defined by other law. I really want to give it a chance..... Yes I find it difficult with my conservative leanings, However I will try.
Ronda:
My health care is provided by the government. I am retired Navy. There is talk of folding the VA medical plans into this law...(though I haven't found it yet) Veteran medical care are on of the promises that our country made to the Military for giving up 20+ years and some rights as a citizen.
Once again I apologize for my crass statement.
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Posts:
4,622
Registered:
8/22/07
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(81 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 9:12 AM
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> as a civilized society we
> > have a moral obligation to do that.
>
> If you were on a battlefield or something, and your
> comrade is obviously fatally wounded, do you comfort
> that person by:
>
> a. Telling him or her to hang on it will be OK
>
> or
>
> b. Tell him or her you will (do something to) help
> their family, etc.
>
> You see one is based on a lie of hope and the other
> is based on a promise based in reality.
Good to see you, Wax. But am I missing something thing? I don't understand how what you wrote here relates to what I wrote. Two different contexts. I simply can't draw a comparison.
Someone I heard on the radio not long ago, (and I wish I could remember who it was) said that a country's system of healthcare often reflects the country's broader ethos. Our country differs from other industrialized countries in that in healthcare, as in so many things, we tend to believe that what we ourselves have we earned through our own hard work, industriousnes and self initiative. If others don't have as much (or as good of an insurance plan) then they simply have not been working hard enough. We tend to discount our interdependencies and see others as impediments on our personal road to wealth and happiness. We rarely look at systems as a whole, and so we can turn a blind eye to practices and policies that don't concern us personally. I've heard it said that most people who have insurance are happy with it- until they get sick, that is. We've let insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, for profit healthcare systems (and all the peripheral for profits in healthcare), dictate to us the parameters of conscience, of what is "fair" and who is a "freeloader". We lap it up, after all we are individuals, right? Rising policy prices, rapidly expanding co-pays, sky high prescriptions, we pay these because we must, and because we have been conditioned to believe such increases are "fair" and "normal". But God forbid we pay a little bit more in taxes so that all of our neighbors can be covered. Then the screams of "unfair" and "socialism" begin. I personally find it appalling, but not all that surprising, that Americans are not rising up against these inefficient profit machines and their lobbyists. We are a wealthy, powerful industrialized nation. Our people should not go without preventative and essential care, they should not be going bankrupt or dying because we do not have a medial system to take care of them.
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Posts:
135
Registered:
8/11/09
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(80 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 3:53 AM
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One more thing
Funny we went from the healthcare issue to being on a battlefeild in a war helping a fallen soldier??
We will just play the game get divorce use you insured folks tax and let the states pay for our illness and deaths!
Thats the American way.
--
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Edited by SONRA43 at 10/30/2009 1:33 AM PDT
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Posts:
846
Registered:
8/13/07
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(79 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 2:39 AM
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as a civilized society we
> have a moral obligation to do that.
If you were on a battlefield or something, and your comrade is obviously fatally wounded, do you comfort that person by:
a. Telling him or her to hang on it will be OK
or
b. Tell him or her you will (do something to) help their family, etc.
You see one is based on a lie of hope and the other is based on a promise based in reality.
The good news... the bill in question (according to CNN) won't make a very big impact on our current healthcare system - it will only ensure a relatively few people get health care, that do not have it now...
The bad news...CNN hasn't read the bill.
The reality... none of us will understand the impact of that bill on our society for a long time. And by then, it will be way too late to reverse any part of it (if necessary). You see, once a government takes on that level of responsibility, it becomes immorale to relinquish it.
Boy, I sure hope they got it right.
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Posts:
135
Registered:
8/11/09
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(78 of 105)
Oct 30, 2009 2:28 AM
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Jimmy,
That was a tasteless response to a very serious issue in this country. But, not so unusual for you.
Skorda
Some of our friends are never going to understand the healthcare problems in our country.
Jimmy I am sure has a great insuramce package.
That is.... as long as he or his wife is employed.
My situation is the small business company. We can only receive disease insurance. The insurance companies have us in a mess. I should also include the doctors and hospitals too. Who have misdiagnosed and recorded my family with health problem we do not have. We have tried to reverse the diagnosis. But when it has been recorded it is very difficult and absolutely impossible to change the error of the doctor ,nurse and transcriptionist.
OK. thats it for me.
Skorda sorry to hear of your 12 year old neighbor passing from the H1N1 virus.
Thinking of you. MSFAM.
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Posts:
4,622
Registered:
8/22/07
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(77 of 105)
Oct 29, 2009 10:23 PM
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And what is it that warrants such a disgusting description? It certainly will not be a perfect piece of legislation, but we need to get our ALL of our fellow Americans insured, as a civilized society we have a moral obligation to do that.
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Posts:
3,873
Registered:
9/2/07
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(76 of 105)
Oct 29, 2009 10:02 PM
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So far I see a steaming turd.....
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