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The Democratic Candidates:
Hillary Clinton
Barack Obama
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Edited by HBOAdmin17 at 03/06/2008 9:43 AM
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(4056 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 5:21 PM
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RapidCreek
That was a stellar article, right on. Thanks for posting it. 
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(4055 of 5001)
Re: According to Hillary ............
Apr 17, 2008 5:18 PM
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> oooh, I think I just saw Saskwatch!
Be careful...your ignorance is showing.
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What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4054 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 5:18 PM
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> It's simple Freethinker, the people who will be
> deciding don't give a shit about Rev Wright.
> They've been putting up for YEARS with Pat
> at Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc. and all the
> Republican candidates shamelessly pandering to those
> fools. The only people fooled by your lies about
> Wright are the ones who hate Obama in the first
> place.
See...this is why I keep saying your full of it. You keep saying that they are MY lies. I dont control the media. I dont call up FOX or MSNBC or CNN or even ABC that asks the questions about Wright. It is ME that will vote for who is the next President just like everyone else. They are not MY lies...they are the MEDIAS truths.
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What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4053 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 5:14 PM
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> > Caught lying about what?
>
> The most obvious one was the taxes. He kept trying to
> say that he wouldnt raise them, and when he tried to
> explain how this would happen and that would
> happen...that would mean a raise in taxes. After a
> quick back track to say he was looking at hopeful
> thinking about wall-street then he wouldnt blah blah
> blah. Again he was asked...that would mean raising
> taxes...THEN Obama said that it would mean a raise up
> to about 28% or a little more.
Yeah, the $97,000 to $250,000 tax discrepancy was pretty weak. I dunno if I think of that as a "lie" the way Hillary's sniper fire was a repeated lie, because he's talking about tentative plans for the future rather than historical facts. He should be compelled to clarify, as should Hillary since supposedly she was also considering the same plan.
I also agree the capital gains tax increase would be a dumb move; Obama seemed to want to soak up some of that speculation money from hedge funds. The real problem with hedge funds is that artificially cheap credit allows them to distort the markets to pull off speculation swindles.
Conversely Hillary proposed price freezes on mortgages, and price controls are also a dumb move that make markets too rigid to function properly.
If anything I was surprised to hear Democrats talk about tax cuts at all. I also appreciated that Obama tried to emphasize fiscal responsibility -- that the national debt needs to be paid down.
That's the real crux of the issue. We have massive government debt and inflation of the money supply (to fund the Iraq war), and that's what's wrecked our economy. The only way to pay that off is to cut services and raise some taxes, which is a very unpopular combination. Taxes are bad, but inflation is much much worse.
> > What precisely did Obama do that you object to?
>
> Just because YOU refuse to listen to or accept the
> fact that the things around Obama are considered
> controversies then explaining that point would do no
> good would it?
Because those are constructed controversies. Only fools work themselves up over stuff like that -- which was exactly Obama's point about "guns, religion, and anti-immigrant sentiment".
Hillary embodies Leo Strauss' ethic of "necessary illusions" exhorted by vanguard politicians to lead the masses to deliverance -- like the fictional lawyer Perry Mason:
"Leo Strauss' other favorite program was Perry Mason, and this, he told his students, epitomized the role that they -- the elite -- had to play. In public, they should promote the myths necessary to rescue America from decay, but in private they didn't have to believe it. Perry Mason was an extremely cunning man who as far as we can see is very virtuous and uses his great intelligence and quickness of mind to rescue his clients from dangers, but who could be fooling us because he's cleverer than we are. Is he really telling the truth? Maybe his client is guilty."
This "cleverness" of the elite vanguard is to appeal to the emotions, rather than the minds, of the masses -- with precisely her experience in Washington "playing the game".
Obama represents that we've seen through the smoke and mirrors, and he's ending the game. We're not playing it anymore.
> And that is why YOU dont see anything wrong with
> anything Obama does wrong. Because you can admit that
> he "changed" his opinion about Carter...but you cant
> accept the fact that Obama does that on EVERY DAMN
> THING HE TALKS ABOUT. He just KEEPS saying one thing
> and then another...just like he does with his views
> on KEY issues. He just says one thing and then
> another and you say it him changing his mind. BUT HE
> NEVER TELLS THE SAME ANSWER!!! So how are we to know
> which time he IS telling the truth about key issues
> when he never tells the same thing twice?
Can you cite any other example than those two? Those are the only ones I'm aware of, and it was quite obvious to me to be able to read between the lines on those two specific issues.
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"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -- R. Buckminster Fuller
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(4052 of 5001)
Re: According to Hillary ............
Apr 17, 2008 4:56 PM
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> No...she did not say that she lied. She said that her
> facts were not right.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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(4051 of 5001)
Re: According to Hillary ............
Apr 17, 2008 4:51 PM
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oooh, I think I just saw Saskwatch!
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(4050 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:50 PM
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> Then stop bitching about people looking into who
> Obama is HIMSELF. If the General Election comes down
> to just a high school popularity contest as you
> believe then the people will do the same thing then
> as they are NOW. Bitching about who Obama is in his
> personal life. McCain is old and thinks the way Bush
> does. Thats the best they got. Look at all of the
> ammo that the Republicans have been stock piling on
> Obama just over the last few months. The McCain lie,
> Wright, Ayers, San Francisco, and on and on. The
> Republicans will eat him up! He has so much unchecked
> personal baggage and the fact that he refuses to give
> straight answers on ANY of them...the general
> election will be plastered with all of that and more.
> How is that helping Obama in the general election.
> For all of this stuff to be smeared over him...he
> will not stand a chance. Popularity has A LOT more to
> do with controversies than speeches.
It's simple Freethinker, the people who will be deciding don't give a shit about Rev Wright. They've been putting up for YEARS with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc. and all the Republican candidates shamelessly pandering to those fools. The only people fooled by your lies about Wright are the ones who hate Obama in the first place.
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It ain't what you don't know that's the trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so...............Mark Twain
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(4049 of 5001)
Re: According to Hillary ............
Apr 17, 2008 4:42 PM
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> In regards to her Bosnia "misspeaking" incident ....
>
> "Unfortunately on a few occasions I was not as
> accurate as I have been in the past...."
>
> "I'm very sorry that I said it. And it just didn't
> jive with what I'd written about and knew to be the
> truth."
>
> Hmmmmmm. So is she flat out admitting that she lied?
No...she did not say that she lied. She said that her facts were not right. Sort of the same thing as when Obama said all of those things in San Fran and then said he didnt mean it, then he did, then he didnt, then he did.
The one thing that she did that Obama doesnt have the BALLS to do is apologize for her mistake. Obama cant say he was wrong about anything. He will even go as far as blaming the ignorance of the American people, for the racist views of white America throughout our country's history, and throwing his grand mother under the bus before he will even admit he was wrong. AND HE STILL HASNT.
--
What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4048 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:38 PM
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> > That is just it...YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU dont
> have
> > a problem with anything...but that is just
> YOU!!!
> > There are many people who question if he is a
> > patriot, if he is racist, and if Obama was wrong
> for
> > staying in that shurch.
>
> No, that's just people parroting Hillary's smear
> campaign against Obama over issues that have no
> bearing on the problems facing the nation.
>
> Again, Hillary's "experience" is with these divisive
> politics of fear, and Obama's "hope" is that we're
> fucking sick of having our emotions manipulated to
> service politicians. We have real problems and can
> no longer afford to waste our time with drama mamas
> like Hillary.
And we can no longer afford to put a liar and a bullshit artist back in the White House the way the last 8 years have gone. Obama cant answer one thing without trying to lie his way through it first. He just does not deserve to win at a carnival game let alone for the Presidency.
--
What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4047 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:36 PM
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> > That is just it...YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU dont
> have
> > a problem with anything...but that is just
> YOU!!!
> > There are many people who question if he is a
> > patriot, if he is racist, and if Obama was wrong
> for
> > staying in that shurch.
>
> Then THEY are ignorant. There are still people who
> believe in the boogey man too, so what? The Rev.
> Wright smear campaign is a non-issue. The fact that
> you still can't get over it speaks volumes about you.
> Seen the Loch Ness monster lately?
And you are BLIND and deaf to the issues. Because a man that "changes" his mind and views as fast as he lies about all of the controversies surrounding him too? How is that believing in the "boogy man"...when the "boogy man" is standing in front of the Nation in a political debate lying his ass off? The "boogy man" isnt real, and neither is Obama. His lies are what will sink him. If not now...in the general.
--
What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4046 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:32 PM
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> Caught lying about what?
The most obvious one was the taxes. He kept trying to say that he wouldnt raise them, and when he tried to explain how this would happen and that would happen...that would mean a raise in taxes. After a quick back track to say he was looking at hopeful thinking about wall-street then he wouldnt blah blah blah. Again he was asked...that would mean raising taxes...THEN Obama said that it would mean a raise up to about 28% or a little more.
> I didn't get an impression that I saw "more of Obama"
> or that he "didn't have answers" at all. I
> saw basically the same Obama I've seen all along: He
> wants to rise above the wedge issue politics and
> personal attacks (and respect voters as independent
> thinkers who do not need to be led by the nose), and
> he wants to end regulatory capture and corporatist
> lobbying, because the government-business partnership
> under G.W. Bush has corrupted both government and
> business into a modern-day fascism. (and Hillary is
> a poster child for corporatist lobbying, which she
> herself ostensibly admits by defending lobbyists.)
Obama has just as many lobbyist working for him so to say she is the only one guilty of that is another stretch of the truth now isnt it? Obama just had no clear or definate answers for anything. When he was aked for ANY specifics he just went back to complaining about past politics in Washington and pointing fingers at Hillary.
> > Obama has said things and done more to hurt
> himself
> > and to blame Hillary for responding to them is
> > idiotic. He does something, she responds, and
> you
> > blame Hillary for what Obama did?
>
> What precisely did Obama do that you object to?
Just because YOU refuse to listen to or accept the fact that the things around Obama are considered controversies then explaining that point would do no good would it?
> > I fail to see how
> > you can say you have an objective view when
> your
> > views are so arrogantly bias for Obama. You want
> to
> > call every Hillary supporter blind to Hillary's
> > controversies, and blind to Hillary's
> faults...but
> > you do the same thing when it comes to Obama.
> YOU
> > refuse to listen to anything negative against
> Obama,
> > just as much as you complaint that Hillary
> supporters
> > are blind to her faults.
>
> Literally the only fault I feel I could honestly lay
> on Obama is him changing from "no comment" to a
> condemnation of Jimmy Carter about his recent talks
> with Hamas.
>
> I'm betting that's a political compromise to quell
> AIPAC and pro-Likud "Jewish Democrats". I'm not
> bothered by if he did the same thing regarding the
> red herring of NAFTA with Canada either. NAFTA was
> another wedge issue invented by Hillary because of
> the Ohio primary; you'll never seriously hear about
> NAFTA again after that.
And that is why YOU dont see anything wrong with anything Obama does wrong. Because you can admit that he "changed" his opinion about Carter...but you cant accept the fact that Obama does that on EVERY DAMN THING HE TALKS ABOUT. He just KEEPS saying one thing and then another...just like he does with his views on KEY issues. He just says one thing and then another and you say it him changing his mind. BUT HE NEVER TELLS THE SAME ANSWER!!! So how are we to know which time he IS telling the truth about key issues when he never tells the same thing twice?
--
What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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(4045 of 5001)
According to Hillary ............
Apr 17, 2008 4:27 PM
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In regards to her Bosnia "misspeaking" incident ....
"Unfortunately on a few occasions I was not as accurate as I have been in the past...."
"I'm very sorry that I said it. And it just didn't jive with what I'd written about and knew to be the truth."
Hmmmmmm. So is she flat out admitting that she lied?
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205
Registered:
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(4044 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:23 PM
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> That is just it...YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU dont have
> a problem with anything...but that is just YOU!!!
> There are many people who question if he is a
> patriot, if he is racist, and if Obama was wrong for
> staying in that shurch.
No, that's just people parroting Hillary's smear campaign against Obama over issues that have no bearing on the problems facing the nation.
Again, Hillary's "experience" is with these divisive politics of fear, and Obama's "hope" is that we're fucking sick of having our emotions manipulated to service politicians. We have real problems and can no longer afford to waste our time with drama mamas like Hillary.
--
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -- R. Buckminster Fuller
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Posts:
1,024
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(4043 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:22 PM
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> That is just it...YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU dont have
> a problem with anything...but that is just YOU!!!
> There are many people who question if he is a
> patriot, if he is racist, and if Obama was wrong for
> staying in that shurch.
Then THEY are ignorant. There are still people who believe in the boogey man too, so what? The Rev. Wright smear campaign is a non-issue. The fact that you still can't get over it speaks volumes about you. Seen the Loch Ness monster lately?
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11,190
Registered:
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(4042 of 5001)
Re: The Democratic Presidential Primaries
Apr 17, 2008 4:20 PM
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> > I dont know how you can say that. Do you really
> think
> > that the stammering fumbling for answers that
> Obama
> > gave last night with the back tracking about the
> war
> > and the tax issue, the 2nd Ammendment thing and
> the
> > rest of it? Do you really believe that the
> debate
> > last night wont be used against him...McCain and
> the
> > Republicans will use every soundbite and snippet
> they
> > can to cost Obama the election. So its a good
> thing
> > that Hillary will be facing him in the fall.
>
> I say it because specific stances on any particular
> issue is irrelevant. In the General election, man to
> man...issues are meaningless. The election will be
> decided by the general impressions of the most
> uninformed voters in the country. It has always
> been that way and it will continue to be that way, at
> least until one party or the other can get more than
> 50% of the vote from within their own party. And in
> that case......specific issues will STILL be
> meaningless in the general election, because the
> outcome will have already been decided.
Then stop bitching about people looking into who Obama is HIMSELF. If the General Election comes down to just a high school popularity contest as you believe then the people will do the same thing then as they are NOW. Bitching about who Obama is in his personal life. McCain is old and thinks the way Bush does. Thats the best they got. Look at all of the ammo that the Republicans have been stock piling on Obama just over the last few months. The McCain lie, Wright, Ayers, San Francisco, and on and on. The Republicans will eat him up! He has so much unchecked personal baggage and the fact that he refuses to give straight answers on ANY of them...the general election will be plastered with all of that and more. How is that helping Obama in the general election. For all of this stuff to be smeared over him...he will not stand a chance. Popularity has A LOT more to do with controversies than speeches.
--
What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or an embarrassment? And Man shall be just that for the Over-Man: A laughingstock or an embarrassment. Nietzsche
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