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President Obama's promised healthcare reform is now in the house. Nothing is definite yet, the detail to be hammered out. What components would you like to see included in the legislation? Are you in favor of a single payer system? Why or why not?
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(720 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house / V.A. as a model
Jul 26, 2009 6:21 PM
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> The president has been touting the Veterans
> Administration as a model for Government run Health
> Care. Bill Maher also used it as a "Good Example."
> Since neither of them have ever used the V.A. health
> care system, they need to be enlightened.
> 1) The care is substandard. It takes months to be
> seen by a doctor. When you do get seen it is a two
> hour or longer wait for a scheduled appointment. When
> the Dr. does see you, it is a 5-10 minute visit with
> the Dr.
> 2) The V.A. employees are lazy (they know they cannot
> be fired for mistreating patients or incompetence).
> 3) If your primary Dr. you saw refers you to another
> Dr. for more tests M.R.i., physical rehab, x-rays
> etc, that is another 3-4 month wait. Then if you need
> to be seen by a specialist, another 3-4 month wait.
> Get the picture? A single medical problem can take a
> year to finally get treated for. The average American
> did not serve, or does not know anyone that served in
> the military that is why everyone is going along with
> the assertion that the V.A. is a good model.
The VA works if you have no problems. Socialized medicine works if you have no problems. When you don't need it, it works great, when you do, well it does not.
I did not serve but have a sister who is currently serving and friends that have been out for years. I sister was stationed not on a base, so she was able to go to private doctors. He care was much better. My friends must make trips everyweek to the VA and hopefully after a year will have something to show.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(719 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 6:14 PM
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> becoming a soldier is a lifestyle choice
>
> working a job with a high risk of physical or psych
> damage is a choice
>
> participating in sports is a choice
>
> driving is a choice
>
> eating meat is a choice
>
> living in a polluted city is a choice
>
>
> So, we wouldn't want to punish those people by
> reducing their medical bill payments based on their
> lifestyle choices any more than if they stemmed from
> addiction.
All of that should be taken into consideration, when a person pays for insurance.
Just like a bad drive pays more for insurance. Just like someone with bad credit, pays higher interest rates.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(718 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 6:12 PM
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CBunny
So, we should depend on the gov't for everything. Once that happens the little power we have will be gone.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(717 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 6:10 PM
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Non profits by law are required to spend the money. They are to have only very little leftover at the end. About 1-2 percent of revenue. They are non profit and are required to be just that.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(716 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 6:07 PM
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oldpolly
> Your care is being rationed now, my friend, but not
> by a government official, but by someone in an HMO
> office who bosses will make plenty out of denying you
> coverage.
> It is not necessary to deny treatment to old people
> with co-morbidities, but to limit treatment to those
> that will extend their life in a meaningful way.
> It's OK to give home 02 to someone with advance
> e COPD, but if they continue to smoke with the 02
> tank, they need to have it taken away. This
> endangers their whole families and neighborhoods.
> Ulitmately, education should enlighten these people
> e first on the dangers of smoking, then when it's too
> late, on how best to manage their disease. Sorry,
> lung transplants not for this guy.
> See what I mean? You call it rationing, I call it
> reasoning.
No my care and others I know did not have their care rationed. I had a friend who had colon cancer, he spent over 60 days in the hospitals after his surgery. He did not eat solid food for about 45 days. The insurance provided by his job, provided for the care, and it was not a cadillac insurance policy. Unfortunately, while he made it out of the hospital, he was never able to fully recover, due to complications, but did life another year and a half. In that time he had nurses come to his home, and needed dialysis. Insurance covered it.
On the other hand, a friend's mother is under 65, disabled, and covered by medicare. She needed an extra because of pain in her leg, she had fallen, the doctor said it would not be able to be done until next month, because medicare would not allow it. While she had private insurance, she did not have a problem. She did therapy, pain managment, surgeries, seen specialists, and received medicine. She was always able to get a treatment or procedure when ordered, did not have to wait, until medicare.
There must be more responsibility in our own health. There is nothing wrong with reason, but to decide your 85, so not pacemaker, or not cancer treatment is not fair. Because your older does not mean your life is worth less.
I suppose by your reasoning we should wipe out the populations of Africa and the Middle East, because the only thing they have add is death, disease, and destruction. Not worth keeping alive, using reason of course.
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Posts:
3
Registered:
7/26/09
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(715 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house / V.A. as a model
Jul 26, 2009 5:33 PM
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The president has been touting the Veterans Administration as a model for Government run Health Care. Bill Maher also used it as a "Good Example."
Since neither of them have ever used the V.A. health care system, they need to be enlightened.
1) The care is substandard. It takes months to be seen by a doctor. When you do get seen it is a two hour or longer wait for a scheduled appointment. When the Dr. does see you, it is a 5-10 minute visit with the Dr.
2) The V.A. employees are lazy (they know they cannot be fired for mistreating patients or incompetence).
3) If your primary Dr. you saw refers you to another Dr. for more tests M.R.i., physical rehab, x-rays etc, that is another 3-4 month wait. Then if you need to be seen by a specialist, another 3-4 month wait.
Get the picture? A single medical problem can take a year to finally get treated for. The average American did not serve, or does not know anyone that served in the military that is why everyone is going along with the assertion that the V.A. is a good model.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
7/26/09
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(714 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 3:25 PM
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> We have all heard that doctors make great money. But
> you don't really hear the hard numbers very often.
> Let me tell you what I know.
> I have been a critical care nurse for 22 years. I
> make $35/hr. Pretty good money, it's a nice living.
> I work 3 12hr night shifts/week, time and a half for
> r over 36 hours. I'm not complaining, and I don't
> fear for my job. I went to college for five years
> and have lots of continuing education at my own
> expense.
> The doctors that I work with, critical care
> intensivists, have gone to school for 12 years, and
> certainly came out of school with enourmous bills,
> yes, in the range that the earlier poster listed,
> around $300k. However, the ones I specifically work
> with are employed by the large hospital system and
> make around $170/hr. Time and a half for over 36
> hours, just like me.
> The hospital covers their malpractice insurance,
> since they are employees of the hosptal.
> Yes, they work hard and are really, really smart
> (most of them), but are they worth 5x what I make,
> working right next to them, knowing much of what they
> know?
> They are not really worried about a new system,
> because they know their future lies not in working as
> small businessmen in private practice, but in working
> for the healthsystem and punching out at the end of
> the day.
If you want to make as much money as a Doctor then you should have worked your ass off in college, done some research, gotten the best grades and applied to medical school. You should have studied all day, night and weekend while paying for the honor to do so. You should have put your family life, social life, happiness and your youth on hold while pursuing your career.
Right now I am a resident physician, I work 80 hours a week for 50,000 dollars a year. I personally have 120,000$ in debt. I don't get 15 mintute breaks for every four hours I work, I don't get an hour lunch and I don't get a dinner break when I'm on my 24 hour shift in the hospital. Someone below said we should be like teachers and other civil servants, well then I want hollidays and summers off. People don't get sick in the summer do they? I have all the respect in the world for nurses, they are invaluable in the service they provide but it is annoying when some of them think they know as much as doctors. I should know, I was a nurse once and thought I knew everything. It wasn't until medical school that I realized the vast mountains of knowledge that is out there and the humbling realization that it is impossilbe to know it all. The fact is, is that you don't know, what you don't know, until you don't know it.
I'm sure the critical care doctors you are talking about would love to work 36 hours a week and "punch out at the end of the day".. but the reality is that Doctors work 36 hours in one stretch and that is just 2 days out of a 6 day work week. That critical care Doctor is taking his work home with him and being woken up all night long with medical issues and questions and back at work the next day. He/She also gets paid more because they are going to be the ones in court when something goes wrong, whether or not it was their fault.
And the post below that equates us to fireman and policeman etc....Pediatricians on average make 80,000$ a year, some fireman in Ca make more then that, work only for 20 years and retire with an unbelievable pension. Not all Doctor's make a lot of money, and if money where our main goal in life, we would be idiots to go into the medical field. There are much faster, less painful and less stressful ways to make a living. The fact is Doctors are the most educated, hardest working people in the country that provide an invaluable service, why shouldn't they be paid accordingly?
Most of us became doctors for altruistic reasons, but after working this hard and receiving so little appreciation, it is hard to maintain that altruism..
And why is no one talking about tort reform!!!!!! In my mind, that is the number one reason why unnecessary medical testing is performed....because Doctors are afraid to have the licence they have sacrificed so much for taken away. No matter what Obama does with healthcare, if there is no Tort reform nothing is going to change.
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Posts:
7
Registered:
7/25/09
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(713 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 2:23 PM
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We have all heard that doctors make great money. But you don't really hear the hard numbers very often. Let me tell you what I know.
I have been a critical care nurse for 22 years. I make $35/hr. Pretty good money, it's a nice living. I work 3 12hr night shifts/week, time and a half for over 36 hours. I'm not complaining, and I don't fear for my job. I went to college for five years and have lots of continuing education at my own expense.
The doctors that I work with, critical care intensivists, have gone to school for 12 years, and certainly came out of school with enourmous bills, yes, in the range that the earlier poster listed, around $300k. However, the ones I specifically work with are employed by the large hospital system and make around $170/hr. Time and a half for over 36 hours, just like me.
The hospital covers their malpractice insurance, since they are employees of the hosptal.
Yes, they work hard and are really, really smart (most of them), but are they worth 5x what I make, working right next to them, knowing much of what they know?
They are not really worried about a new system, because they know their future lies not in working as small businessmen in private practice, but in working for the healthsystem and punching out at the end of the day.
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Posts:
5
Registered:
3/13/09
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(712 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 12:04 PM
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> > CBunny says:
> Why must they make extreme profits. Teachers teach
> our children at half the cost. Police provide
> security, Firemen protect my property.
>
> I guess their incentive was pride in their work, not
> the money. They are true public servants.
>
> Why aren't healthcare providers, public servants,
> also. They are dealing with the public.
>
> What makes their profession any better than the above
> public servants. The authority you gave them?
You honestly think that firemen, policemen, and teachers are motivated by self sacrifice for the greater good? Huh. Most public servants I know will gladly tell you they got into those lines of work because they were relatively easy to get into and the job security is unparalleled.
Firemen and policemen do not need to go to school for 8+ years to study the intricacies of the human body and mind, nor do they go into research to discover/invent better ways of treating illness and disease. To dedicate your life to doing something that requires this kind of brain power, you deserve to be paid very well.
I'm not saying one job is better than the other. All I'm saying is, they're apples and oranges.
Why do you equate self sacrifice with good and making money with evil, when it's the profit motive that, well, motivates discovery and advancement? But let's extend your belief out a little further. What about movie, music, and sports stars? They make what you call "extreme" profits. Hell, I'd even call them "obscene" profits. So why don't we tax the heck out of THESE essentially useless folks to pay for healthcare for all?
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Posts:
35,613
Registered:
12/1/04
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(711 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 11:40 AM
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becoming a soldier is a lifestyle choice
working a job with a high risk of physical or psych damage is a choice
participating in sports is a choice
driving is a choice
eating meat is a choice
living in a polluted city is a choice
So, we wouldn't want to punish those people by reducing their medical bill payments based on their lifestyle choices any more than if they stemmed from addiction.
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Posts:
35,613
Registered:
12/1/04
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(710 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 11:34 AM
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oldpolly,
Welcome, nice to have people in the medical industry posting here with us.
I agree with you about DNR and the importance of evaluating our quality of life if we survive last ditch effort heroic life saving procedures. I agree with you about the likelihood any of us would regret putting ourselves through miserable or traumatic medical procedures chasing 5% cures when they don't work and we've suffered for nothing, or the almost nothing of months in the joyless world of med care. As a smoker, if I get cancer, I'll just ride the wave out on painkillers and avoid futile treatment. But I don't think that decision should be made by anyone but the patient. I'm pro-choice.
I don't agree with your idea that reimbursement for treatment be based on the patient's culpability. I think the medical damage suffered from poor lifestyle choices are the punishment for those behaviors in themselves with no further need to punish the patient financially.
That would be a form of health policing.
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Posts:
2,940
Registered:
6/8/09
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(709 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 11:15 AM
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I don't mind Doctors and nurses making good money, but I resent paying an insurance company when their incentive is to not pay- even when they know they are supposed to.
To an insurance company, I am a resourse to be bled- and then ignored if the money is supposed to come from them.
You don't even usually have the option to change companies if they give bad service in the case of health insurance. Not that there is much to choose from anyway.
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Posts:
35,613
Registered:
12/1/04
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(708 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 11:10 AM
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CBunny
Excellent post
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Posts:
31,307
Registered:
9/5/01
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(707 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 10:51 AM
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> If you have a bad driving record,
> > you
> > > pay more for car insurance. So, the worse
> the
> > health
> > > the more they should pay.
> > >
> > > I have not seen any indication that the
> dems
> > have
> > > taken much into account. Why not an
> > independent
> > > commission, to study and develop a plan.
> >
>
> Ronnie:
>
> > You would trust an independent commission to
> "really"
> > be independent?
> >
> > --
> We have had enough stalling. No commission, as its
> findings would be opposed by the Republicans anyway.
It's better to take the time to make sure they get they right for the country.
Every word of it.
--
Hey, Jughead!
Get your eyes checked, I'm not Betty, I'm Veronica and my heart belongs to Archie. 
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Posts:
1,907
Registered:
10/21/07
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(706 of 3780)
Re: Healthcare in the house
Jul 26, 2009 9:52 AM
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> CBunny:
>
> Why must they make extreme profits. Teachers teach
> our children at half the cost. Police provide
> security, Firemen protect my property.
>
> I guess their incentive was pride in their work, not
> the money. They are true public servants.
>
> Why aren't healthcare providers, public servants,
> also. They are dealing with the public.
>
> What makes their profession any better than the
> above public servants. The authority you gave
> them?
>
> Are they your gods. Cause I don't think healthcare
> providers are any better than me, just trained in a
> different profession.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
>
> The biggest difference is that teachers, police, and
> firefighters don't come out of college $300,000 in
> debt to student loans the way doctors do. Medical
Which is wrong, and I see the government trying to change the situation. Two of my relatives work with the government as nurses. So the government has deferred their student loans.
So if we have government healthcare. The healthcare providers will not have to repay their loans.
When they decide they must make a profit, they must start repaying the loans. Guess what, my relatives decided they are working the full twenty years, (to retirement,) so that they do not have to repay that loan.
We are losing pre-med students for this very reason.
That's why we have so many H1 Visa job GP's, because American students cannot afford to pay that overblown price for education.
Perhaps, a change in our status quo and we let go of our fears of the unknown, will change this situation.
> school is pricier than the police academy.
So is going to law school, but it doesn't stop our politicians.
>
> The simple fact of the matter is that some jobs are
> worth more than others.
I spent five figures for my university degrees. Thanks to outsourcing, that was mute. A country who provided the cost of education at a lower cost, than America, citizens got my job. My corporation outsourced my department, after I trained them.
The same is happening in America except doctors are insourced by healthcare corporations. So stop acting like doctors deserve the higher wages. Tell those selfish pricks to provide care to the poor, instead.
A teacher is worth more than
> a garbage collector, a police officer is worth more
> than landscape worker, and doctors are worth more
> than firefighters because their skills, training, and
> expertise are far more valuable. Anyone can hold a
> water hose -- not everyone can cut open your chest
> repair a heart valve.
If you worked at a government social program, you would know that many of those workers receive about the same wages. A middle class wage. And they are happy with it.
--
I used to say, "I" and "me"
Now it's "us", now it's "we."
Michael Jackson, from "Ben"
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