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The NYT reports that 23 Americans, CIA agents, have been convicted for the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric off the streets of Rome. Bush critics had high hopes for the trial as a condemnation of anti-terrorism tactics. The question is, as agents under command of the administration, should President Bush or VP Cheney be held accountable for the actions of these agents? Is this an impeachable offense if agents under command of the administration are convicted?
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(15 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 9:25 AM
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Cynic
OF COURSE the 4th has not been repealed. I did not claim that it had.
But it has been rendered moot, academic, whatever. It has been EFFECTIVELY nullified, as long as the executive branch can spin some sort of National Security nexus.
And I'm sure you're paying close enough attention to agree that they spin a National Security connection to damn near everything that happens these days.
Under the provisions of the act, all sorts of things can be searched and taken WITHOUT A WARRANT, which is to say without judicial oversight.
NSL's Cynic, is what makes it happen. Just invoke National Security, or Terrorism, and they can search whatever they want.
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35,163
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(14 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 7, 2009 2:55 AM
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> GZ
>
> Would it make you feel better if we just shoot em?
>
> I thought Democrats and liberals were all about being
> proactive and trying not to make the same mistakes
> twice and improving intelligence... oh wait, no,
> that's not them..
>
> Any way, I find it difficult to have this discussion
> without making the observation that there's nothing
> stopping the US from using extreme rendition today.
> Are you so sure that you can say that the US has
> as stopped?
lug
From what I've read the Obama admin is continuing to employ rendition. They say the torture has stopped. If we're not torturing suspects we're picking up then why can't they be brought to the US for questioning?
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8,362
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(13 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 11:11 PM
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> GZ
>
> Would it make you feel better if we just shoot em?
>
i think you missed the fact that the world will always take action to close in on bush/cheney & loyalists...and rape them anally.
for some that's not such a comforting thought luggy. i know it escapes you.
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(12 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 9:55 PM
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> Really, ?, Cynic?
>
> Guess what old buddy? The Congress seems to have
> decided that none of the "sunset" provisions of the
> act shall be allowed to expire--they will be
> continued.
>
> So, you can live in your reality, and I'll live in
> mine. 
You can stick your head up your ass if you like and live there, but read the constitution about amendments and tell us if the 4th has been repealed or not?
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(11 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 9:28 PM
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Really, ?, Cynic?
Guess what old buddy? The Congress seems to have decided that none of the "sunset" provisions of the act shall be allowed to expire--they will be continued.
So, you can live in your reality, and I'll live in mine.
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(10 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 8:52 PM
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Jetfuel:
> Yes GZ, renditions are legal and so are warrantless
> wiretaps and all sorts of other searches.
>
> The truth is that the Fourth Amendment means nothing
> since the Unpatriot Act.
>
> This government today is just as criminal as it was 9
> years ago.
The misnamed "Patriot Act" did not suspend the 4th amendment. Many parts of that law are clearly unconstitutional and will eventually be declared null and void.
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13,038
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(9 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 4:42 PM
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> Yes GZ, renditions are legal and so are warrantless
> wiretaps and all sorts of other searches.
>
> The truth is that the Fourth Amendment means nothing
> since the Unpatriot Act.
>
> This government today is just as criminal as it was 9
> years ago.
WE'RE IN THE AGAINST THE ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS!
Don't you ever forget thousands of innocent Americans perished a decade ago.
We won the Iraq War. That's one less place for the Muslim terrorists to train plot against us.
We're still fighting the good war in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Iran is next.
That sounds about right?
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(8 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 4:35 PM
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> Any way, I find it difficult to have this discussion without making the observation that there's nothing stopping the US from using extreme rendition today. Are you so sure that you can say that the US has stopped?
No. No shit. Hence some of the other posts and comments on this thread.
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(7 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 4:28 PM
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GZ
Would it make you feel better if we just shoot em?
I thought Democrats and liberals were all about being proactive and trying not to make the same mistakes twice and improving intelligence... oh wait, no, that's not them..
Any way, I find it difficult to have this discussion without making the observation that there's nothing stopping the US from using extreme rendition today. Are you so sure that you can say that the US has stopped?
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3/21/08
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(6 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 4:13 PM
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The ACLU has been going after the CIA for practicing rendition for 14 years, since 1995.
This week I saw the play Someone Who'll Watch Over Me by Irish dramatist Frank McGuinness based on a true story. It's frightening, funny, sad and poignant. The setting is 1986 in a dungeon in Lebanon where 3 men are shackled to the walls; an American doctor, a British professor, and an Irish journalist who were abducted for no reason. The Islamic Jihadist captors murdered the doctor, and the others were set free after years of confinement and torture.
And now Americans are the barbarians at the gate.
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(5 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 3:56 PM
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Well, by golly, let's just boycott Fiat.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 2:16 PM
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Yes GZ, renditions are legal and so are warrantless wiretaps and all sorts of other searches.
The truth is that the Fourth Amendment means nothing since the Unpatriot Act.
This government today is just as criminal as it was 9 years ago.
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Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 6, 2009 2:02 PM
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Renditions are legal in the U.S.
U.S. officials can arrest anyone, anywhere, at any time. They can sequester anyone without charge, deny communication and legal counsel, and render anyone to any prison anywhere in the world where anyone can be held indefinitely in coffin-like, windowless dungeons, and tortured.
Maher Arar was taken to a Syrian prison where he was tortured, and spent 10 months confined to a 6ft long, 7ft high, 3 ft wide dungeon that he shared with rats. He is an innocent victim, and as a Canadian citizen, he sued the Canadian gov and won a $9 million settlement.
The decision on his U.S. case, Arar vs. Ashcroft, came down last Monday, on Nov 2. Judges voted 7-4 to dismiss the case in favor of upholding renditions to protect U.S. national security.
One of the dissenting judges, Judge Sack, describes in nightmarish detail Arar's arrest and treatment.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/11/03/arar/print.html
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(2 of 30)
Re: Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 5, 2009 9:35 PM
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Should doesn't matter....
This is a display of the judiciary taking an active role in a society. Something that James Madison saw as necessary and proper.
Too bad Madison's dream was nothing more.
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(1 of 30)
Italy convicts 23 Americans in CIA Renditions
Nov 5, 2009 9:30 PM
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The NYT reports that 23 Americans, CIA agents, have been convicted for the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric off the streets of Rome. Bush critics had high hopes for the trial as a condemnation of anti-terrorism tactics.
The question is, as agents under command of the administration, should President Bush or VP Cheney be held accountable for the actions of these agents? Is this an impeachable offense if agents under command of the administration are convicted?
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