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Barack Obama was elected the 44th president of the United States, as the country chose him as its first African American chief executive.
Share your thoughts on this historic election.
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Posts:
2,979
Registered:
10/22/06
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(24682 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 8:26 PM
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> Don17000
>
> No, it isn't. A corporation is just an
> artificially created entity. It doesn't have to do
> any business, doesn't have to own anything, pay
> anything, or have any money. It just has to be
> registered in the records of the state wherein it's
> incorporated. You can form a corporation and never do
> a thing with it. The corporation still exists.
>
> A business can be a form of corporation, but doesn't
> have to be.
>
> Are you kinding me? A corporation is a form of
> business. It is a type of business. It is a form of
> ownership of a business.
>
No, I'm not kidding you. A corporation is only a construct on paper. There are thousands of shell corporations created every year, corporations which are not businesses, and which do no business. Most of them are offshore, in places like Panama or the Caymans, or Netherlands Antilles.
I know this, because my father had a Swiss and a Panamanian one when he was alive. He formed them to eventually receive funds from a business deal he was working on, but the deal, which also involved a Brazilian company was never completed. The others in the deal had similar corporations in Bermuda and Curacao.
These corporations' only purposes were to own shares of another corporation. Others are formed, whose only purpose is to be a barrier to taxation. It does no business, it owns nothing except shares of another corporation, it has no money or other assets; it has directors who do meet only once a year because the law requires it, and the directors meet, decide they have nothing to discuss, and adjourn.
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Posts:
2,979
Registered:
10/22/06
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(24681 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 8:11 PM
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> Actually, they are usually run as separate profit
> centers, which is to say, similar to being their own
> businesses. Similar to the way Lincoln and Mercury
> are divisions of Ford, but more like the service dept
> and fleet sales dept of a dealership.
>
> They have a budget, just a the FD and PD do. They
> are accounted for separately, but fall under one
> budget/ balance sheet. I do think it is a fair
> analogy.
>
> You want to look at departments that aren't profit
> centers, try those that just can't generate revenue.
> Like the human resources department, or the IT
> department.
>
> I had thought of that, but went with my first
> choice.
>
> A state is a business. The purpose may be different,
> but in the end it is a business. As I said under the
> exact definition, it probably would not fit or an
> english teacher would not agree. But, at the end of
> the day it is a business. A state needs revenues in
> other to operate, some of which is by law and some of
> which is by choice. There are laws that businesses
> must follow and expenses incurred because of, just as
> states must follow laws regarding services.
>
They have similarities, granted. But also dissimilarities. A business produces goods or provides services, and it generates most of its revenue from the sale of those goods and services. Its customers do not have to do business, and if they can decline services don't want and not incur the expense, or if they didn't like the way the services were provided, they can refuse to pay, it's only a civil matter.
A government may also provide goods and services, but that accounts for the bulk of its expenses, and actually very little if any, of its revenue. Its revenue comes from taxation. The taxation must be paid whether any services are used or not, and it doesn't matter if the customer is satisfied with the services or goods provided, the customer must still pay. Failure to do so is a punishable offense.
> A state should be run like a business. It seems to
> me your equation is business=evil. That is not the
> case. But, don't act like gov't is any different,
> they exploit people too.
No, a state should not be run like a business, unless its purpose is the same. The purpose of a business is to generate profit. It cannot exist simply to serve the public. A business must serve itself first.
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Posts:
3,208
Registered:
5/8/06
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(24680 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM
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> Most businesses operate based on profits, a state, or
> gov't operates by political profits.
>
> Just as a business may choose to use the most
> profitable strategy, gov't chooses the best
> political.
>
> So, yes a gov't/state is a business, whether we want
> it to be or not.
Contract law 101. Every business engages in commerce ie the buying and selling of goods or services. Every sale is by definition a contract.
Contracts must by law contain certain elements - a meeting of the minds, offer and acceptance, mutual consideration, performance or delivery, good faith etc.Here's an elementary explanation.
NONE of those elements are present when dealing with the government. You may not opt out. You are given no choice.
The government is not a business.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24679 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 12:09 PM
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> > Right.
> >
> > In a capitalist system the corporation is
> expected to
> > maximize profit- period. Any person who is not
> a
> > "stakeholder" (on the board of directors and the
> CEO
> > and his personal staff) can be classified into
> 2
> > categories:
> >
> > 1. Sheep to be sheared (customers).
> These
> > Sheep are to be exploited for maximum profit.
> Give
> > them the least value for their money, and get as
> much
> > money from them as you can. Watch the film
> > Glenngarry Glen Ross and you'll get the
> idea.
> > " A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be
> > e closing, always be closing."
> >
> > 2. Enemies (competition, vendors,
> employees).
> > These people either steal Sheep from the
> > e Stakeholders or worse yet, have a negative
> cash
> > flow claim against the Stakeholders for either
> > services, supplies, or wages. These claims must
> be
> > minimized without mercy.
> >
> > So, when well meaning people say that
> "Government
> > should be run like a business," they don't know
> what
> > they are asking for. I don't think a
> Representative
> > Democracy should treat me like either a Sheep to
> be
> > Sheared or as an Enemy.
>
> 
>
> Unplugged the claim of innovation and progress, which
> can easily be countered with sustainability. Sounds
> like an interesting conversation.
or LOOPS back to be subjected to "OOPS," of capitalism.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24678 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 12:06 PM
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Oh, I forget to put (D) there.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24677 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:52 AM
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Thing seems to bother the college students these days.
A decade of wars, energy spikes, privacy violations, fear mongering, burst of housing bubble, bailouts, etc., don't seem to bother the college kids until a whopping fee hike.
These little fuckers suit themselves in the world they find.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24676 of 24727)
Nov 20, 2009 11:46 AM
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> I see your being a real (I) lasted all of an hour,
> lol.
PW,
Love?
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Posts:
9,616
Registered:
3/25/08
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(24675 of 24727)
Nov 20, 2009 11:46 AM
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> My name is infoseek. I'm a liberal Democrat, and not
> one of those fake ones too.
>
> Small business are facing credit crunch. President
> Obama is promising fi-nancial help. Why not lace
> small business fi-nan-sil assistance with incentives
> to allow employees to form new unions instead of
> joining the existing mob bosses? Wouldn't that be
> win/win for everybody?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> infoseek (D)
I see your being a real (I) lasted all of an hour, lol.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(24674 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:44 AM
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Don17000
Except that the post office has to deliver to every address in the country (they can't just skip areas, such as rural locations they would lose money on serving), and they don't get to set their own rates. They have to ask Congress for permission if they think they need to charge an extra penny. You think FedEx and UPS have to go through that? If a postal employee knowingly misdirects mail, it's a federal crime. Can't say the same for the others.
You are seeing the difference, I hope, between doing business, and being a business.
Yes they have to deliver to every address. Put, since they have a monopoly on first class and third class mail, any piece of mail sent, has to be sent by them. FedEx and UPS deliver to every address. Due to the Post office's monopoly allows them to provide cheaper service for priority and express mail, since they go to those addresses already.
The post office is owned by the federal gov't, and is basically operated by it. If I pay more for the service or our tax dollars go toward it, would not change how much it costs per person to operate. It creates an artificially cheaper service. The problem with any gov't run business, especially when politicians won't give up control, is they act politically, not what is in the best interest of the business or those who it serves.
Most businesses operate based on profits, a state, or gov't operates by political profits.
Just as a business may choose to use the most profitable strategy, gov't chooses the best political.
So, yes a gov't/state is a business, whether we want it to be or not.
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Posts:
9,616
Registered:
3/25/08
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(24673 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:43 AM
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> A state is a business.
No, it isn't. Shall I post the definition of business again?
> The purpose may be different,
> but in the end it is a business.
No, it isn't.
> As I said under the
> exact definition, it probably would not fit or an
> english teacher would not agree. But, at the end of
> the day it is a business.
At the end of the day, it is no more a business than it was at the beginning of the day.
> A state needs revenues in
> other to operate, some of which is by law and some of
> which is by choice. There are laws that businesses
> must follow and expenses incurred because of, just as
> states must follow laws regarding services.
That doesn't make them the same thing. At all.
> A state should be run like a business.
Well, that's certainly an opinion you can have, but it still doesn't make a state a business.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24672 of 24727)
Nov 20, 2009 11:41 AM
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My name is infoseek. I'm a liberal Democrat, and not one of those fake ones too.
Small business are facing credit crunch. President Obama is promising fi-nancial help. Why not lace small business fi-nan-sil assistance with incentives to allow employees to form new unions instead of joining the existing mob bosses? Wouldn't that be win/win for everybody?
Sincerely,
infoseek (D)
--
Edited by infoseek at 11/20/2009 8:42 AM PST
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(24671 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:26 AM
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Don17000
No, it isn't. A corporation is just an artificially created entity. It doesn't have to do any business, doesn't have to own anything, pay anything, or have any money. It just has to be registered in the records of the state wherein it's incorporated. You can form a corporation and never do a thing with it. The corporation still exists.
A business can be a form of corporation, but doesn't have to be.
Are you kinding me? A corporation is a form of business. It is a type of business. It is a form of ownership of a business.
And yes a business can be a corporation, just as a corporation is a form of business.
Florida is a private university? And no, they are not businesses. They may be run like a business. A city, county or state government can be run like a business, just the way an adult can act like a child. That doesn't mean it is one.
My mistake, I always though Florida was private. But, they are businesses.
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Posts:
2,191
Registered:
6/23/09
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(24670 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 11:15 AM
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Actually, they are usually run as separate profit centers, which is to say, similar to being their own businesses. Similar to the way Lincoln and Mercury are divisions of Ford, but more like the service dept and fleet sales dept of a dealership.
They have a budget, just a the FD and PD do. They are accounted for separately, but fall under one budget/ balance sheet. I do think it is a fair analogy.
You want to look at departments that aren't profit centers, try those that just can't generate revenue. Like the human resources department, or the IT department.
I had thought of that, but went with my first choice.
A state is a business. The purpose may be different, but in the end it is a business. As I said under the exact definition, it probably would not fit or an english teacher would not agree. But, at the end of the day it is a business. A state needs revenues in other to operate, some of which is by law and some of which is by choice. There are laws that businesses must follow and expenses incurred because of, just as states must follow laws regarding services.
A state should be run like a business. It seems to me your equation is business=evil. That is not the case. But, don't act like gov't is any different, they exploit people too.
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Posts:
13,040
Registered:
2/5/06
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(24669 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 10:46 AM
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> > OK. I'm a real independent. Friends?
>
> LOL. I'm supposed to take your word for it?
Yes. Hugs.
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Posts:
9,616
Registered:
3/25/08
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(24668 of 24727)
Re: President Barack Obama
Nov 20, 2009 10:36 AM
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It means we can't be friends until you're a
> real
> > something.
> >
> > Like you once were, info...when we did converse
> here.
> > Now I pretty much just scroll by your posts.
> If
> > f it's more than a line or two, it isn't
> getting
> > read. I have no use for bullshit.
>
> OK. I'm a real independent. Friends?
LOL. I'm supposed to take your word for it?
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