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General religion discussion.
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Posts:
1,834
Registered:
10/21/07
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(4581 of 4581)
Oct 31, 2009 2:35 PM
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Imagine if there's no Heaven!
This video is from Shimon Peres's 80th birthday. President Bill Clinton sings John Lennon's 'Imagine' with 16-year old Israeli phenomena Liel, 40 Israeli children, and 40 Arab children!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0F_6plYyTM
Imagine, a different world if they become adults and still believe in the words of the song.
Not just reciting them.
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Posts:
1,780
Registered:
3/13/08
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(4580 of 4581)
Oct 21, 2009 10:43 PM
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No question:
God thinks I?m special and tortures people who don?t agree with me. Want to be my friend?
The others invest WAY TOO MUCH thought.
Good stuff!
DaN
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Posts:
1,675
Registered:
7/9/08
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(4579 of 4581)
Oct 21, 2009 2:15 PM
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Bumper Stickers I'd like to see (#23):
Adding god to government, is like adding the tooth fairy to dentistry.
Divinity = power achieved through misdirection and extortion.
Despite Gaia?s resistances, we?re still spreading.
Ever sing carols in a non-denominational school? My favorite: all I want for Christmas is my soul not-to-burn. My Soul Not-to-Burn!!!
Pilate knew the best hang-outs.
God thinks I?m special and tortures people who don?t agree with me. Want to be my friend?
and?
Entropy is the norm, evolution is the exception. Faith, is believing that we are the sole reason for both.
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Posts:
709
Registered:
4/14/07
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(4578 of 4581)
Oct 15, 2009 12:55 PM
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oh and we are PURE energy...little nuclear reactors - but most human beings are soooooooo not interested in accessing their personal power. And trust me many in government ain't to keen on folks waking up to it either...
Once you do if you do---be mindful. all the stuff you see in cartoons and dream of doing --you are capable of....
isn't that cool?
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Posts:
709
Registered:
4/14/07
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(4577 of 4581)
Oct 15, 2009 12:46 PM
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I agree things don't try to evolve they just do
first your moms egg was in her womb. Along comes dad's semen and they collide...now...if things just didn't evolve -what would you have
this is also what makes us 4th dimensional...the seed exists still in us and determined by our sex we will produce a certain type of seed. semen or ovum...
the odds are good BECAUSE a simple compound we must have.
But let me stay on task. the ovum and sperm are now multiplying at rapid rates and NOT embedding into the placenta OR more kids would have it attached to them when they are born. so a few breadths away from the placenta you commit your first/original sin by sending off trophoblast cytes to destroy the womb....this line of energy is the beginning of force the first time you hurt a person. then SOLEY via energy pattern or like a scent pattern ants follow...the umbilical cord forms from you to the mother and like a parasite we begin to feed off the damage we've done...
Now if Monsanto and other terminator seed producers have their way...this will not happen naturally. but if people start breaking off the grid --they will at least not suffer to large a loss of conveniences.
There's lots more
--
Edited by ToriW at 10/15/2009 9:48 AM PDT
excuse I am repeasting myself by what i've written above yet it was appropriate reference and example..
though i am not a fan of repeating myself. i am getting better with it 
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Edited by ToriW at 10/15/2009 9:51 AM PDT
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Posts:
2,920
Registered:
10/22/06
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(4576 of 4581)
Oct 13, 2009 9:07 PM
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>
> The cards themselves do indeed disappear. That still
> goes on today. Its called death or ceasing to exist.
But that death isn't always universal and it's rare that it comes to complete extinction. Many will die, certainly. Perhaps most will die. But a few scattered pockets will live, and will adapt, and it only takes a handful to regenerate. This may also explain the absence of clear fossilized transitions.
> What doesnt cease to exist is whatever caused those
> cards to exist in the first place, and/or whatever is
> shuffling them.
That may cease to exist, too. If it was a kind of parasite, for instance, that no longer has a viable host. Or a food source or germ that causes sterility or sexual dysfunction.
> But thats not what this is about.
Yes, it is. At least, partially. Disregarding it doesn't give you a complete picture.
> Without the cards, whatever is shuffling them cant do
> anything. What you're saying here and in the rest of
> your post is that maybe whatever created the cards
> created them again and shuffled them again, and then
> after failing created them again and shuffled them
> again, etc...but thats not how things work/worked.
No. We have a difference in what constitutes "the cards." For you, it apparently means life itself, and once it dies, it's gone. You don't understand that I'm saying that by "the cards" I mean the organic chemicals, which are still only carbon-based chemicals, are still present, and so is the energy.
> The whole reason why things happened is because of
> the Big Bang. Energy didnt turn into matter, then
> compacted itself, then formed non-life which in turn
> turned to life, which evolved into us because it
> chose to. It did this out of simple cause and effect.
> To put it simply, we are the effect of the Big
> Bang(what caused the Big Bang, idk). So, considering
> that the Big Bang only occurred once, that doesnt
> leave much room for failure. Matter was only created
> once, not twice. Non-life was also created once, not
> twice. Life was created once, not twice. And human
> beings evolved into human beings once, not twice.
> After the initial failure of the 99.99999% of the
> first deck of cards, what in the world makes you
> think that the remaining .00001% not only survived,
> but survived long enough to create another deck of
> cards and try again?
>
>
> > Not so fast. How do you know the Creator is not
> the
> > Created?
> >
> > First, remember that you're talking about God,
> for
> > Whom, according to you... all things are
> possible.
>
> I realize i capitalized the C in Creator, but i wasnt
> actually referring strictly to God. I was referring
> to anything that creates in general. The creator is
> not the created. Then again, you never really cared
> much for common sense.
I care a great deal for it, but I recognize that common sense isn't infallible. Many logical assumptions that sound like common sense, are just plain false.
Let me give you what I was considering when I made this comment:
Ever hear the term, "self-made man?"
Let's talk about you. Or me. Or each of us. If you're talking about physically, then the creator, in our experience, is not the created, and we could not physically create ourselves.
But if you're talking about more than that... the whole, that is always more (and sometimes infinitely more) than the sum of its parts... Then the essence of you, is your mind, that personality within our brain that makes our brain so very different from each other's,even though they are all similar collections of the same chemicals and biomatter. It's a unique blend of all the lessons and experiences we've learned and had, and how we chose to react to them. No two are the same.
And we certainly created our own minds. Nobody else could have. If you believe in free will... not even God could have created the mind that you call yours. If He had, it wouldn't be your mind, it would be one of His.
And what is the essence of who we are? Our minds. So in that sense, the created can be the creator. Now apply that principle to God. Don't you think He could have created that which He calls Himself, if He chose to?
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Posts:
836
Registered:
1/20/08
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(4575 of 4581)
Oct 13, 2009 6:40 PM
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> First off the card shuffling analogy I used was to
> represent the chances or odds not evolution itself.
> Second I'll reiterate my point I stated that I nor
> most of the people I have talked to think that life
> exsisted at the beginning of space time so it would
> not have to survive like you wrote. Also things do
> not "try to evolve" unless you know something
> about evolution I don't, evolution from what I know
> is a natural process of those most fit or suited for
> the ennvironment they are in surviving and
> reproducing. Also your adaptation of my card
> shuffling analogy makes no sense to me.
First, i never said that life existed at the very beginning. Second, the "try to evolve" is just a figure of speech;its not meant to be literal. Third, what i mean by the card analogy is that you and others claim that the creation of life and the evolution of life was a "fail and try again" process(shuffling of the cards), which is what science claims as well. What im saying is that there was/is not much room for failure when it comes to survival, particularly when we consider the circumstances surrounding the early stages of evolution. Failure, for evolution, means death. Meaning, the chances of survival become less and less with each failed attempt...and there were many. Simply put, which is all i've been saying all along, the odds are extremely against evolution being the cause of life/us, and thats putting it lightly. And not just evolution, but the whole Big Bang theory is at odds, by its own claims. Take matter as an example.
Of course, science is desperately trying to find a loophole out of this predicament, and my money is on the fact that they will come up with an equally improbable explanation, but for now its still a problem. Im talking about anti-matter. At the very first instant that matter was created, it should have been destroyed, or at least 99.99999% of it. Another problem is...where the heck is the anti-matter? This is just to scratch the surface. The very same thing applies to life and evolution. Its not about WHEN life was created, and when it evolved, but rather how it survived long enough to evolve in the first place? Look back a few of my post back, like 4 or 5 posts back, and read my example of the bullet thing. That explains somewhat what i mean, and tell me what you think.
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Posts:
473
Registered:
9/11/07
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(4574 of 4581)
Oct 13, 2009 2:05 PM
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Taking your example of the cards, add to that that every time you shuffle the cards, all or most of the cards disappear(die), THEN you have what evolution is. In the deck of cards, sure, given enough time MAYBE the cards will wind up in perfect order, but thats because no matter how many times you shuffle them, all the cards will be there. Thats not the case with evolution. Its not "shuffle and shuffle again", but rather "evolve or die". So, the "if you fail, try again" theory simply cannot apply to evolution. First, consider the few life or non-life forms that existed toward the beginning. Science claims that at the very beginning, 99.999999% of whatever existed would have ceased to exist because it wouldnt have been able to survive the present conditions. Now, given this extremely small percentage of survival, what in the world makes you think that the 00.000001% that survived the beginning would have been able to continue surviving and evolving long enough to eventually become life, and eventually become us? Every time something tried to evolve and failed, it died, meaning with every failed attempt there were less and less "cards", meaning the chance of survival logically becomes less and less every time they failed. Believing that we start out with 52 cards, and every time we shuffle more and more cards disappear, and that somehow over a long enough period of time we will still get the 52 cards in order is simply illogical. Evolution, as science claims it occurred, is illogical. - thevoyce
First off the card shuffling analogy I used was to represent the chances or odds not evolution itself. Second I'll reiterate my point I stated that I nor most of the people I have talked to think that life exsisted at the beginning of space time so it would not have to survive like you wrote. Also things do not "try to evolve" unless you know something about evolution I don't, evolution from what I know is a natural process of those most fit or suited for the ennvironment they are in surviving and reproducing. Also your adaptation of my card shuffling analogy makes no sense to me.
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Posts:
709
Registered:
4/14/07
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(4573 of 4581)
Oct 13, 2009 1:23 PM
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knowing a thing or four about particles and the manipulation of molecular structure...i would suggest you look up metamaterial and check out the documentary's on them
As far as Atheists and salvation.....they are already saved -so to speak
Ok so now go check out ruth and Naomi. it will talk of how abraham & lot seperateGen 13:1-18 .. how from the line of lot via ruth -moabite- (Ruth 4:18) King David came jesus the savior, the..whom the first book of matthew claims is the son of Abraham...--clearly not true when you read this book.
--
Edited by ToriW at 10/13/2009 10:26 AM PDT
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Posts:
836
Registered:
1/20/08
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(4572 of 4581)
Oct 12, 2009 10:46 PM
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> Really? What makes the cards disappear? All the
> elements are still there, failure after failure.
> Think of it this way, perhaps: A rack from a game
> e of scrabble, and a bag of letters. Grab a handful
> at random, arrange them. Sometimes, it will make a
> word, sometimes it won't. Most of the time, there
> will be at least one small word contained, even if
> it's only one or two or three letters. That word
> goes onto the board. More letters follow, and those
> that aren't words fall away. Those that are, stay
> and build onto what was already there. They
> interlock, and form into symbiotic relationships,
> creating ecosystems, eventually.
The cards themselves do indeed disappear. That still goes on today. Its called death or ceasing to exist. What doesnt cease to exist is whatever caused those cards to exist in the first place, and/or whatever is shuffling them. But thats not what this is about. Without the cards, whatever is shuffling them cant do anything. What you're saying here and in the rest of your post is that maybe whatever created the cards created them again and shuffled them again, and then after failing created them again and shuffled them again, etc...but thats not how things work/worked. The whole reason why things happened is because of the Big Bang. Energy didnt turn into matter, then compacted itself, then formed non-life which in turn turned to life, which evolved into us because it chose to. It did this out of simple cause and effect. To put it simply, we are the effect of the Big Bang(what caused the Big Bang, idk). So, considering that the Big Bang only occurred once, that doesnt leave much room for failure. Matter was only created once, not twice. Non-life was also created once, not twice. Life was created once, not twice. And human beings evolved into human beings once, not twice. After the initial failure of the 99.99999% of the first deck of cards, what in the world makes you think that the remaining .00001% not only survived, but survived long enough to create another deck of cards and try again?
> Not so fast. How do you know the Creator is not the
> Created?
>
> First, remember that you're talking about God, for
> Whom, according to you... all things are possible.
I realize i capitalized the C in Creator, but i wasnt actually referring strictly to God. I was referring to anything that creates in general. The creator is not the created. Then again, you never really cared much for common sense.
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Posts:
2,920
Registered:
10/22/06
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(4571 of 4581)
Oct 12, 2009 9:13 PM
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> Taking your example of the cards, add to that that
> every time you shuffle the cards, all or most of the
> cards disappear(die), THEN you have what
> evolution is.
Really? What makes the cards disappear? All the elements are still there, failure after failure. Think of it this way, perhaps: A rack from a game of scrabble, and a bag of letters. Grab a handful at random, arrange them. Sometimes, it will make a word, sometimes it won't. Most of the time, there will be at least one small word contained, even if it's only one or two or three letters. That word goes onto the board. More letters follow, and those that aren't words fall away. Those that are, stay and build onto what was already there. They interlock, and form into symbiotic relationships, creating ecosystems, eventually.
In the deck of cards, sure, given enough time
> MAYBE the cards will wind up in perfect order, but
> thats because no matter how many times you shuffle
> them, all the cards will be there. Thats not the case
> with evolution. Its not "shuffle and shuffle again",
> but rather "evolve or die". So, the "if you fail, try
> again" theory simply cannot apply to evolution.
Explain why? The elements are all still there. Matter/energy is never destroyed, it just breaks down and changes form.
> First, consider the few life or non-life forms that
> existed toward the beginning. Science claims that at
> the very beginning, 99.999999% of whatever existed
> would have ceased to exist because it wouldnt have
> been able to survive the present conditions. Now,
> given this extremely small percentage of survival,
> what in the world makes you think that the 00.000001%
> that survived the beginning would have been able to
> continue surviving and evolving long enough to
> eventually become life, and eventually become us?
It can mutate. We see things, especially insects and microbes, and small things, mutate all the time. They become resistant to the forces that used to be lethal.
> Every time something tried to evolve and failed, it
> died, meaning with every failed attempt there were
> less and less "cards", meaning the chance of survival
> logically becomes less and less every time they
> failed. Believing that we start out with 52 cards,
> and every time we shuffle more and more cards
> disappear, and that somehow over a long enough period
> of time we will still get the 52 cards in order is
> simply illogical. Evolution, as science claims it
> occurred, is illogical.
>
But you insist that the cards are all being thrown away in the trash, and they're not. You insist that when a life form fails, ALL of it fails... maybe it doesn't. Maybe some of it survives, and those traits continue. You are pretending that "survival of the fittest" doesn't occur. If what you said were true, the entire caucasian race would have ended with the bubonic plague. What happened, some developed a means of survival.
> > Final note spontaneous generation being
> disproven
> > shouldn't be misconstrued as evidence of a
> higher
> > power. Also there's a big hole in your theory
> of
> > "...things couldn't have simply occured on
> their
> > own.". See if you put this theory to
> practice it
> > means the creator had to be created, by a
> creator who
> > also had to be created because as you said
> > "...things couldn't have simply occured on
> their
> > own.
>
> Well, the Creator is not the created, therefore the
> laws that govern this Universe(the created) do not
> govern the Creator.
Not so fast. How do you know the Creator is not the Created?
First, remember that you're talking about God, for Whom, according to you... all things are possible.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
10/12/09
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(4570 of 4581)
Oct 12, 2009 4:21 PM
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Science does not disprove God's existance, it can only validate it's own facts. I'd suggest an atheist play it safe, for thier own selfish existance, to look for proof of God's existance in thier own everyday life,and at least.. when they die they have a half way chance of eternal salvation.
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Posts:
709
Registered:
4/14/07
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(4569 of 4581)
Oct 12, 2009 3:26 PM
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check out this site www.keturahwasler.com pretty good.
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Edited by ToriW at 10/12/2009 12:27 PM PDT
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Posts:
836
Registered:
1/20/08
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(4568 of 4581)
Oct 12, 2009 2:19 PM
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> So if I understand you the fossil problem is that
> scientists don't have a complete enough fossil record
> to prove that evoulution has occured?
Part of the problem is a lack of fossils, yes.
>
> Also I don't think very many people say that life has
> exsisted since the beginning of space time; but that
> life was formed slowly through the countless eons,
> through the interraction of elements on an atomical
> and molecular level. Constantly over and over and
> over again, one could liken it to repeatedly
> reshuffling a deck of cards of course the chances of
> all the cards in the deck coming up in order is
> nearly impossible but it could happen over a long
> enough timeline. Also the main reason the Big Bang
> theory and Evolution are mainstream concepts is the
> exsisting evidence that supports them, not because
> the only other option is God.
Taking your example of the cards, add to that that every time you shuffle the cards, all or most of the cards disappear(die), THEN you have what evolution is. In the deck of cards, sure, given enough time MAYBE the cards will wind up in perfect order, but thats because no matter how many times you shuffle them, all the cards will be there. Thats not the case with evolution. Its not "shuffle and shuffle again", but rather "evolve or die". So, the "if you fail, try again" theory simply cannot apply to evolution. First, consider the few life or non-life forms that existed toward the beginning. Science claims that at the very beginning, 99.999999% of whatever existed would have ceased to exist because it wouldnt have been able to survive the present conditions. Now, given this extremely small percentage of survival, what in the world makes you think that the 00.000001% that survived the beginning would have been able to continue surviving and evolving long enough to eventually become life, and eventually become us? Every time something tried to evolve and failed, it died, meaning with every failed attempt there were less and less "cards", meaning the chance of survival logically becomes less and less every time they failed. Believing that we start out with 52 cards, and every time we shuffle more and more cards disappear, and that somehow over a long enough period of time we will still get the 52 cards in order is simply illogical. Evolution, as science claims it occurred, is illogical.
> Final note spontaneous generation being disproven
> shouldn't be misconstrued as evidence of a higher
> power. Also there's a big hole in your theory of
> "...things couldn't have simply occured on their
> own.". See if you put this theory to practice it
> means the creator had to be created, by a creator who
> also had to be created because as you said
> "...things couldn't have simply occured on their
> own.
Well, the Creator is not the created, therefore the laws that govern this Universe(the created) do not govern the Creator. Simply put, only that which is in this Universe requires some sort of beginning/creation. God is the one who created this "rule", and it doesnt apply to Him. He is the only self-begotten being....period.
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Edited by thevoyce at 10/12/2009 11:21 AM PDT
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Posts:
49
Registered:
10/6/09
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(4567 of 4581)
Oct 11, 2009 6:51 PM
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If God created humans then maybe God messed up big time. Look what we`ve done to God`s pretty blue marble in such a short time. A body can`t travel the way God does so God has to be a spirit or at least vaporous. Why couldn`t God just be as the world just is? And why do we thank God when things go right and blame us when things go wrong? Religion is a way to explain what we don`t understand. How can it possibly be accurate when we made it up?
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