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General religion discussion.
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Posts:
272
Registered:
8/30/08
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(1759 of 4609)
Oct 14, 2008 12:00 AM
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''The Jews denied that Christendom had the inside track to eternal salvation. They never had to say a word about it. The mere fact that they remained true to their strict interpretation of monotheism was a constant reminder that Jesus was thought false by people who should have known better, and this might mean that Christendom was wrong. That can not be tolerated by Christianity.''
Jesus himself was a Jew, and many of his converts were also Jewish. Jesus taught non-violence and equality. Men perverted his teachings or disregarded them entirely.
I respect anyones right to freedom of religion........except when it comes to religious fanatics who pervert religion for their own benefit, or those who abuse it to gain superiority or power over others.
I also respect anyones right to not believe in religion.
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Posts:
272
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(1758 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 9:23 PM
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LesaA
You're just a bit too condescending for my taste....so tell me, what did YOU believe in before you received the baptism of the indwelling?
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Posts:
3,050
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10/22/06
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(1757 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 7:43 PM
Rate this post:
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> For all the atheists, deep philosophers,
> blah,blah,blah,etc. including Mr. Maher who say there
> is no God and the response is always PROVE IT THEN.
> Despite all the evidence in favor of creationism,
> with constant new discoveries, people are going to
> believe what they want to in their heart of hearts.
> Most were raised with some type of faith but whether
> through witnessed hypocrisy or just plain life
> disillusionment, they chose to go the opposite
> direction. Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit do
> indeed exist. I am a living witness and I can tell
> you if you ever come to know Christ and receive the
> baptism of the indwelling, nothing on this earth
> compares to it. Take your most joyous moment in
> life-wedding day, childbirth,etc and multiply that
> feeling by a thousand. It's really immeasurable. It's
> unadulterated PURE LOVE.
> Atheist-doesn't believe there is a God
> Agnostic-says if there is a God, I don't know him
> Christian-says there is a God-Let me tell you about
> him
>
What about people of other religions?
I believe in God. I believe Jesus was no more than a failed reformer, no more divine or less human than I am.
> And do remember-You can't take it with you. Have you
> ever seen a hearse with a U-Haul behind it?
No, but there were a over a thousand who went down on the Titanic and took whatever they had with them. And a hundred times that in places like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden... and in the Pacific Rim region on 12/26/04 when the tsunami hit. The analogy is ludicrous, as it is meant to be.
Ultimately, everyone dies. We take with us only what's in our minds at the time, which means we all die naked, possessionless and alone.
--
America is facing the worst financial crisis at least since the Great Depression! Ask yourself who you'd rather have in charge: A man with a 20-year history of helping the very rich become much richer?
Or a man with a 20-year history of helping those who are not rich avoid becoming poor?
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Posts:
7
Registered:
9/22/08
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(1756 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 6:37 PM
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For all the atheists, deep philosophers, blah,blah,blah,etc. including Mr. Maher who say there is no God and the response is always PROVE IT THEN. Despite all the evidence in favor of creationism, with constant new discoveries, people are going to believe what they want to in their heart of hearts. Most were raised with some type of faith but whether through witnessed hypocrisy or just plain life disillusionment, they chose to go the opposite direction. Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit do indeed exist. I am a living witness and I can tell you if you ever come to know Christ and receive the baptism of the indwelling, nothing on this earth compares to it. Take your most joyous moment in life-wedding day, childbirth,etc and multiply that feeling by a thousand. It's really immeasurable. It's unadulterated PURE LOVE.
Atheist-doesn't believe there is a God
Agnostic-says if there is a God, I don't know him
Christian-says there is a God-Let me tell you about him
And do remember-You can't take it with you. Have you ever seen a hearse with a U-Haul behind it?
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Posts:
283
Registered:
1/12/08
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(1755 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 2:54 PM
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Axetogrind
"And, how is it even possible for someone to be more "Christian, Jewish, or whatever" than someone who is in their own way, just as pious? How is it even possible for a priest to be exonerated for molesting a child (the most heinous sin of all, if you ask me), and yet will not allow a certain politician take Mass because they believe in a woman's right to choose? This is exclusionary shit that all these damn religion's use to make the sheep stay with the rest of the flock."
All valid points. I see the answer as "defined otherness."
Man is inherently prone to "other-hatred." But not always, not everywhere, not against everyone who is different. Some filter must be brought forth which isolates and clearly identifies the "otherness" which will elicit the emotional flux.
While there are individuals who are so anti-social that they will hate all others (these folks tend to hate everyone but themselves, for they can find otherness in everyone. They are psychiatrically diagnosable, an aberration from the typical degree of prejudice about which we speak), most people can live with many forms of otherness, reserving their hatred for one or a few identifiable groups.
So, it is not simply otherness that elicits the emotion. It is a clearly defined otherness.
That clearly defined otherness is the trigger which brings forth the human characteristic of prejudice. It is a very subjective thing. It might be racial, it might be political, it might be cultural, it might be religious. But it has to be something.
Religion, regrettably, is a very efficient catalyst, a very efficient trigger. Because so much of it is based on very deep emotionalism, differences which to an outside observer might seem superficial are, in fact, quite profound to the believers. The moderate Republican and the moderate Democrat can sit quite comfortably in a bar, chewing each other's basic politics to shreds but doing so in a civil, peaceful manner. Put a radical liberal and a radical conservative together, and fur will fly.
That's how it is with religion. Christians have so much invested in the belief that Jesus is precisely as advertised that any threat to that core belief, any overt rejection of it will be met with profound responses. We saw that in the earliest moves against them made by Christendom. We saw that in Augustine's moderating response to those earliest moves. We saw it when the Crusades, on their way to Palestine, stopped off at a few cities and killed a few thousand Jews, just to warm up. We saw it in the Inquisition, when an otherwise very tolerant people, the Spanish, abandoned the tolerance they learned under Islamic rule and reveled in the plight of the Jews. We saw it in the pogroms aimed against them by the Tsars, and we saw it in its fullest expression in Germany, Poland, Lithuania and Russia. What started out as a church sponsored suppression of their political and economic rights festered for 1500 years, with periodical outbreaks of violence. In that 1500 years it was reinforced time and again, not because they looked different, not because they were circumcised, but because they were Christ Killers (which they were not).
The Jews denied that Christendom had the inside track to eternal salvation. They never had to say a word about it. The mere fact that they remained true to their strict interpretation of monotheism was a constant reminder that Jesus was thought false by people who should have known better, and this might mean that Christendom was wrong. That can not be tolerated by Christianity.
The same thing can be seen in al Qaeda and its cousin, the Taliban. They saw the modernization of the Islamic world by the influence of the west being a direct attack on their understanding of Islam. The emotions that let loose came from the deepest corners of their emotional beings. Their despite for that attack on Islam can never be quenched as long as anyone in Islam lives with any device, any thought that they perceive to be an attack on their interpretation of their religion.
They do not hate us because we are not Persian or Arab. Their acceptance of the American clearly demonstrates that. They hate us because they see our modernity, and especially our exporting that modernity to their world, as a statement of hatred against their religion. They fear their women becoming educated, possibly giving up wearing their burkas, no longer keeping with the old ways and beliefs, etc.
My God is bigger and better than your God, if you do not believe in a deity you will go to hell, my political party is the right one, my religion is the right one, she asked for it by the way she was dressed, and on and on. All are an effort to demean another. Sadly, one would have thought that we would have evolved further at this point in time.
You can't demonize someone without a clearly defined otherness. Religion is all too effective at providing that.
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Posts:
272
Registered:
8/30/08
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(1754 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 1:56 PM
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Axetogrind,
Subjectively, I can understand where you are coming from. Others have used their Christian religion against me, but I have also used my Christian religion against others, in a deliberately negative way. This is a terrible attribute of human nature. It is not only found in Religion, but can be found in any sphere of life, politics, business, personal relationships, etc.....The need for people to be right or to have the most or be the best, is something that temporarily satisfies our ego, and temporarily appeases our self doubt and inadequacy. (Temporarily) being the key word, this cycle must continually repeat itself.
Still, I cannot renounce my faith in Jesus, be he real or a myth (an idea). The idea of Jesus, for me, is someone who embodies the highest moral standards.
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Posts:
509
Registered:
8/30/08
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(1753 of 4609)
Re: Religion--Bill's comments on The Daily Show
Oct 13, 2008 10:42 AM
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> Bill is wrong to equate the atheist position with
> that of the certainty professed by the religious.
>
> I am an atheist and, not surprisingly, I know many
> others like me. And none of us profess the kind of
> certainty claimed by religious people.
>
Atheism should be (and really is) the default position.
To others, you could say, "I will believe in your god if you can prove it exists."
That covers all religions with a god. Any other religions with supernatural elements can be treated the same.
So if someone says, "My god, OGG, who lives in a lake behind my house, will send you to Pluto if you don't give me 10% of your money", just say you'll do it when they prove the existence of OGG.
Oh, and when they reply with "But Pluto exists!" you need to back away from them - very slowly, but don't take your eyes off of them.
--
[T]here is not a liberal America and a conservative America - there is the United States of America.
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Posts:
4,801
Registered:
1/15/06
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(1752 of 4609)
Re: Religion--Bill's comments on The Daily Show
Oct 13, 2008 10:05 AM
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> Wicky
> >
> I think it is sickening the way the McCain/Palin
> > campaign is trying to instill fear and distrust in
> the people who believe them to be "one of them".
> They, McCain/Palin are only out for themselves.
> This s clear to most people, however this is not clear to
> all. This is all McCain has left, because he knows he
> is loosing. If McCain truly thought that Obama was a
> threat to the American people, he would not have
> waited so long into the campaign to air his
> complaints against Obama. It is definitely a
> campaign
> > strategy and it's to bad that your relative and
> her circle of friends just don't get it.
> >
> Fear begets fear, as love begets love, if she is a
> christian she should know this, or at least be reminded of
this truth.
>
> We all know what happened when Bush used his
> fear tactics to lead us into an unending war in Iraq.
> >
> We should all have learned the lessons of the
> Bush dministrations by now, why some haven't is
> beyond me.
>
> She was put on the ticket to be a witchhunter and she
> ended up being the hunted Karma is a pit bull with
> lipstick
It is sickening. Ignorance is sickening. There are "Chrisians" who do not understand the teachings of Christ.
--
22 days to go -
wicky/effi
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Posts:
24
Registered:
10/11/08
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(1751 of 4609)
Oct 13, 2008 5:30 AM
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I have many views about religion. I have a similar background to Bill Maher in this regard, and have a similar take regarding the subject. Although ultimately, my perspective is probably not entirely the same.
Having grown up with Jews and Christians my entire childhood, I've made an interesting observation that I've never heard anyone discuss before.
The idea that a person can be "more" religious than another person of the same faith. The idea that religion is a 'competition' rather than an intrinsic pursuit of self fulfillment and spiritual awakening, has always bothered me. It first came to me when my cousin (my stepfather's side of the family) tried to explain that he could not pay a bet (which he lost, btw), because he was christian...And, "Christian's" don't gamble (wink, wink). The irony of that statement at the time bothered me, because my mother was Catholic and my sister and I had been going to church since the very beginning of our existence. At the time, I was actually more indoctrinated in religion than my cousin (my sister and I went to bible school each day, after school...as well as a whole host of other such nonsense. Something my cousin never had to endure.) I remember at the time thinking, "well, you weren't Christian enough to stop yourself from making the bet to begin with...But, now you are all Jesus-Love-and-Peace on me now that you lost the wager. He even had the balls to say to my face that "I'm not a real christian", because he was from a different denomination. I remember thinking at the time: "what am I chopped liver?" I remember explaining to him how ridiculous that statement he made was...He wouldn't have any of it. So, I punched him so hard in the face his nose started bleeding out of control. Then, I started to dig through his pockets to get the dollar he owed me. Needless to say my parents weren't exactly thrilled with me (and expressed their displeasure by giving me a few whacks too. Ah, the good old days.)
Like Bill Maher, I'm half Jewish as well (My real father's side). Although, from other Jews I'd get the "Oh, well you're not really Jewish" nonsense. I was fifteen (and at the time was feeling real proud of my father's heritage at the time...Plus, I was a real smart ass to boot.), and someone said to me: "Oh, well if your dad is the only Jew in the family that you're not really Jewish at all." Not to be deflated I responded with: "Hey, if you are going to call Sammy Davis Jr. a Jew...then shut the F_ _k up." My grandparents had to come to this country because of Hitler, so I don't suffer any foolish backtalk about the authenticity of my heritage...It should be good enough for any Jew who doesn't want to end up like my cousin.
However, for once they are both right, my cousin and the Jews who are obnoxious about the paternity suit clause in their religion.
It's all made up horse crap anyway. So, really...why should any of it bother me?
The reason I have absolutely no interest in religion is because there is this lack of clear definition to it.
"Sammy's a Jew, but I'm not." "My cousin is more Christian than me, yet he only goes to church on Sunday's." And, don't get me started talking about other religions. They all have the same disconnect to one degree or another.
You see, it completely lacks any thread of credibility whatsoever. And, how is it even possible for someone to be more "Christian, Jewish, or whatever" than someone who is in their own way, just as pious? How is it even possible for a priest to be exonerated for molesting a child (the most heinous sin of all, if you ask me), and yet will not allow a certain politician take Mass because they believe in a woman's right to choose? This is exclusionary shit that all these damn religion's use to make the sheep stay with the rest of the flock.
What would Jesus do? (substitute: Allah, Buddha or Vishnu. It's all the same crap, if you ask me.) No, and I'm not talking about taking one sentence out of the bible (Qu'ran, Baghavagita, Torah, etc.), that conveniently can be twisted to support your nonsensical frame of justification...No, sir. "What would Jesus do", based upon the entirety of his message, not just the little piece that allows you to act like a bastard.
Ask yourself this the next time you hear some outlandish hypocrisy such as what I've mentioned here...Then if you feel as I do, turn to them and politely say: "You are completely full of shit!!!" (punching in the nose is optional)
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5
Registered:
10/11/08
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(1750 of 4609)
Oct 11, 2008 9:40 AM
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Isn't it against the christian religion to lie? bear false witness?
Isn't it the epitome of unpatriotic to attempt to tear this country apart in this time of crisis to win an election?
How dare McCain/Palin imply they have a monopoly on either and just how stupid are the people who fall for this lame ass tactic?
McCain said he would rather lose an election than to lose a war. Isn't this current financial crisis and illegal war EXACTLY what was intended by Bin Ladin?
The way these dumbasses justify the blatent farces that they perpetuate is WAY beyond reason.
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Posts:
8
Registered:
10/11/08
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(1749 of 4609)
Oct 11, 2008 8:39 AM
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> Heh, I don't really think knowledge of the holy spirit can be conveyed over a wiki.
Might be a fair point.. that was the first place I looked, though the wiki had alot of information and alot of different interpretations.
Wait a minute, not sure where you are coming from. Do you mean..
It doesn't have sufficient and accurate information?
or
That you need to experience the spirit and that experience cannot be conveyed in words?
Sorry I am new here and need to know if we are going to discuss 
--
Edited by likwidsh0k at 10/11/2008 5:46 AM PDT
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Posts:
1,303
Registered:
4/16/07
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(1748 of 4609)
Oct 11, 2008 7:45 AM
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Heh, I don't really think knowledge of the holy spirit can be conveyed over a wiki.
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Posts:
8
Registered:
10/11/08
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(1747 of 4609)
Re: Religion--Bill's comments on The Daily Show
Oct 11, 2008 7:01 AM
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Hi,
1st post, I live in Australia and am a huge fan of the show and The Daily Show.
Great bit about the story of Christianity but left out a third of the Holy Trinity.. the Holy Ghost. Which again is ludicrous concept and also dates back to the way of the world 2000 years ago and male domination...
The creation story is a prime example, in the 7 days story men and women are created together on the 6th day. Then whoever wrote it has gone aah wait a minute can't have that.. they can't be created equal.. and so they append the Eden story where Eve is created from Adam. The Bible contradicts itself in the first few pages of the most fundamental part.. the creation of the universe?
But back to the bit about the Holy Spirit and following on from this.. they can't have a woman in the God story, no women in anything always virgins births etc, so we have the Holy Spirit or Ghost.. yes ghost stories lol
And this is the most obscure and misunderstood part - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit
Its water... fire... cloud & light.... a finger... even a dove?
But the clincher is people who wrote it thought hmm how can we make sure nobody questions this ghost business??? Aha I got it make it a mortal sin..
"Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
Round of applause and laughter.. perfect! :D
So you have the father & son but no mother because no women allowed so instead we get the 'Holy Ghost' but you can't say wtf or question it because that's a mortal sin. You can really imagine a group of people gathered around a table making this shit up!
Cheers,
Andrew
--
Edited by likwidsh0k at 10/11/2008 4:13 AM PDT
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Posts:
520
Registered:
2/18/08
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(1746 of 4609)
Re: Religion--Bill's comments on The Daily Show
Oct 10, 2008 9:34 PM
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> Wicky
>
> I think it is sickening the way the McCain/Palin
> campaign is trying to instill fear and distrust in
> the people who believe them to be "one of them".
> They, McCain/Palin are only out for themselves. This
> is clear to most people, however this is not clear to
> all. This is all McCain has left, because he knows he
> is loosing. If McCain truly thought that Obama was a
> threat to the American people, he would not have
> waited so long into the campaign to air his
> complaints against Obama. It is definitely a campaign
> strategy and it's to bad that your relative and her
> circle of friends just don't get it.
>
> Fear begets fear, as love begets love, if she is a
> christian she should know
> this, or at least be reminded of this truth.
>
> We all know what happened when Bush used his fear
> tactics to lead us into an unending war in Iraq.
>
> We should all have learned the lessons of the Bush
> administrations by now, why some haven't is beyond me.
She was put on the ticket to be a witchhunter and she ended up being the hunted Karma is a pit bull with lipstick
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Posts:
272
Registered:
8/30/08
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(1745 of 4609)
Re: Religion--Bill's comments on The Daily Show
Oct 10, 2008 9:31 PM
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Wicky
I think it is sickening the way the McCain/Palin campaign is trying to instill fear and distrust in the people who believe them to be "one of them". They, McCain/Palin are only out for themselves. This is clear to most people, however this is not clear to all. This is all McCain has left, because he knows he is loosing. If McCain truly thought that Obama was a threat to the American people, he would not have waited so long into the campaign to air his complaints against Obama. It is definitely a campaign strategy and it's to bad that your relative and her circle of friends just don't get it.
Fear begets fear, as love begets love, if she is a christian she should know
this, or at least be reminded of this truth.
We all know what happened when Bush used his fear tactics to lead us into an unending war in Iraq.
We should all have learned the lessons of the Bush administrations by now, why some haven't is beyond me.
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