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De-Bunking 6 myths about Detroit's Big Three
BY MARK PHELAN ? FREE PRESS AUTO WRITER
November 17, 2008
The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.
Myth No. 1: "Nobody buys their vehicles."
Reality:
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world.
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2: "They build unreliable junk."
Reality:
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers."
The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3: "They build gas-guzzlers."
Reality:
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord.
The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic.
A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4: "They already got a $25-billion bailout."
Reality:
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5: "GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs."
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry.
The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6: "They don't build hybrids."
Reality:
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 1:55 PM
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Beagle - I saw this today and thought of you.
>>Got a Beagle? You are inquisitive and willing to learn new things. The Beagle is constantly questioning. If you own one of these dogs, chances are you are a curious, willful person who is loyal to friends, tough on enemies and pretty stubborn.<<
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 1:53 PM
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You all seem to forget the fact, NOBODY IS IN THE BUSINESS TO ENSURE FLOOR LABORS' PROMOTION.
That's life.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 12:42 PM
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>>your company, the place you rely on to measure your sucess, is failing so miserably your asking me (labor) to bail you out and yet you still enjoy your cigars, nice suits, fancy restuarants and flying a luxury executive private jet. basically the things REAL PEOPLE don't get to enjoy on the scale overpaid execs do.<<
see folks? this is a perfect example of detachment from reality. this poster cannot make the simple connections, the majority of working people do on a daily basis.
Ah well, face. Aretzios is back.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 12:41 PM
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zoso67 wrote:
>" ... If you worked for Cat then you remember what it was like back in the early 90's during that tumultuous time when the company was allowed to bring in scab labor.... the net result is a reduction in the workforce of Caterpillar Co itself and an influx of outsourcing companies like ATS who hire young, less experienced workers to attempt to do the same job for much less money. Gone are the days of the 'old guard': the managers and supervisors who worked their way up from the shop floor and understood what it was like."
In fact, I don't remember the early 90's at Cat since I left their employment in 1956 and my father retired in 1968. I was a design draftsman and Dad was a time-keeping supervisor so neither of us were union members nor 'old guard'.
At that time, Cat employed more than ten thousand hourly wage workers in East Peoria alone and virtually all of the manufacturing was done "in-house". Even the foundry operation was a local affair. Steel ingots came in one door of the factory building complex and D9 tractors rolled out from another. All of that infrastructure and the employment is gone now, even Building KK where I sweated over a drafting board.
The issues and attitudes were the same then, though and hourly workers generally despised management and "big shots" in much the same way as they apparently do now. Some things never change.
--
I, Beagle CMXIV, am the author of this post; opinions expressed are my own.
--
Edited by Beagle914 at 11/21/2008 10:54 AM PST
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 12:26 PM
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> > it's hard to explain to right wingers but
> treating
> > yourself so great and compensating yourself
> > extravagantly and overwhelming indulgence,
> > constantly, will lead to a detachment from hard
> > reality. that's why we have CEOs, the well
> connected
> > and the ignorant right, on MSM saying labor is
> the
> > problem.
>
> What does detachement from reality has to do with
> designing, manufacturing and selling cars? In fact,
> the CEOs of these companies are very much anchored in
> reality.
"There is nothing wrong with enjoying reaching the top, wearing nice suits, smoking nice cigars, eating in nice restaurants and flying first class."
reality:
your company, the place you rely on to measure your sucess, is failing so miserably your asking me (labor) to bail you out and yet you still enjoy your cigars, nice suits, fancy restuarants and flying a luxury executive private jet. basically the things REAL PEOPLE don't get to enjoy on the scale overpaid execs do.
see folks? this is a perfect example of detachment from reality. this poster cannot make the simple connections, the majority of working people do on a daily basis.
thanks for helping out aret.
well done old bean.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 11:00 AM
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> Caterpillar has, historically, been
> more hard-nosed toward the UAW than the automobile
> industry in general. Maybe that's why it's still a
> viable and profitable US industry while the big
> three, GM, Ford and Chrysler, are not.
>
> I worked for Cat myself, and so did my father (for 38
> years between the two of us). My job paid for my
> college education and Dad still draws a pension and
> benefits forty years into retirement.
If by 'hard nosed' you mean breaking the Union then I agree. If you worked for Cat then you remember what it was like back in the early 90's during that tumultuous time when the company was allowed to bring in scab labor.... the net result is a reduction in the workforce of Caterpillar Co itself and an influx of outsourcing companies like ATS who hire young, less experienced workers to attempt to do the same job for much less money. Gone are the days of the 'old guard': the managers and supervisors who worked their way up from the shop floor and understood what it was like.
The problem is that the upper management loses sight of the fact that their product is made by the people in the shop. The only thing that matters to upper management now is a healthy bottom line so they can get their profit sharing checks and multi-million dollar bonuses. They give less than a shit about the working man.
--
Don't people who deal in absolutes scare you just a little bit?
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 2:04 AM
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2010 Honda Odyssey has smooth and clean diesel.
I told my wife to wait for it, but she bought an 08 instead.
Look on the bright side right?
Cheap discount and finance.
One more seat than 2010.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 2:01 AM
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Try Estima Hybrid. Cheap.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 2:00 AM
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GoogleBot wrote:
>"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9Jqj1DvJyQ
>Fuel efficient. Avail hybrid. Yeah, I'll buy that."
I don't believe that the 2008 Toyota Alphard Vellfire is available as a hybrid anymore. I could be wrong but I don't think so. At the yen-to-dollar equivalent of $34,000 it's a bit pricey and not sold in the US as far as I know.
--
I, Beagle CMXIV, am the author of this post; opinions expressed are my own.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 1:17 AM
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> > CEOs of Honda and Toyota? No complaints there.
> They
> > keep things running, funds flowing, etc.
> >
> > --
> > Barack Obama = Dubya II
>
> The CEOs of Honda and Toyota reside in Tokyo, Japan.
> And they run totally different operations with
> h different cost structures. And they are hostile
> to unions in the US, not in Japan. For them, we are
> Batustan!
They are profitable. They are innovative. They design cars people want.
Is there anything more to say?
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 1:13 AM
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> CEOs of Honda and Toyota? No complaints there. They
> keep things running, funds flowing, etc.
>
> --
> Barack Obama = Dubya II
The CEOs of Honda and Toyota reside in Tokyo, Japan. And they run totally different operations with different cost structures. And they are hostile to unions in the US, not in Japan. For them, we are Batustan!
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 12:51 AM
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CEOs of Honda and Toyota? No complaints there. They keep things running, funds flowing, etc.
--
Barack Obama = Dubya II
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 21, 2008 12:32 AM
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> it's hard to explain to right wingers but treating
> yourself so great and compensating yourself
> extravagantly and overwhelming indulgence,
> constantly, will lead to a detachment from hard
> reality. that's why we have CEOs, the well connected
> and the ignorant right, on MSM saying labor is the
> problem.
What does detachement from reality has to do with designing, manufacturing and selling cars? In fact, the CEOs of these companies are very much anchored in reality. They live in a world of intense competition and in a world where uneasy lays the crown. Most of the CEOs of top companies hardly stay there for more than a couple of years. Longevity in the CEO post is very rare. The Ford and the Chrysler CEOs are fairly new in their jobs can hardly be blamed for the where these companies are today. In any case, you can hardly blame the CEOs of car companies for the current problems of the industry. They were building the only cars capable of returning profits to them due to their labor obligations. These cars were not selling well during a period of high gasoline prices. Detroit retooled and revamped the line but none of these cars would be been produced before 2010.
Anyway, success is good. There is nothing wrong with enjoying reaching the top, wearing nice suits, smoking nice cigars, eating in nice restaurants and flying first class. If success does not feel good, why would anybody try hard for it? And you need to understand that most of those who get to be CEOs have tried hard and worked hard for it. So get over your resentment.
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Re: De-Bunking 6 myths and cliches about Detroit's Big Three
Nov 20, 2008 11:04 PM
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the big 3 are just the latest to hit the rocks and of course most of the blame falls squarely on the executives and their very pampered/luxurious lifestyles.
it's hard to explain to right wingers but treating yourself so great and compensating yourself extravagantly and overwhelming indulgence, constantly, will lead to a detachment from hard reality. that's why we have CEOs, the well connected and the ignorant right, on MSM saying labor is the problem.
consider:
labor produces. now i've heard the story of union workers making over 70 an hour on the line but the vast majority don't earn that much. without the labor force there is nothing.
if you don't agree, fire all labor and don't hire more. do the work yourself.
you may be a right winger and think you can hire immigrant workers or outsource labor on the chance of finding the desperate for wages. also consider:
by hiring the desperate for wages, you hire the desperate.
desperate people find no loyalty.
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