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C'mon McCain, you should be better than this. I guess not. You want to drill offshore that we'll pay for most likely in increased gas prices and not a drop of oil will be seen for years, if at all. Then we'll wind up paying more.
Get rid of the gas tax...I read an article in my local paper that described how thousands of jobs in the gas and transportation fields would be lost per state with the lose of the gas tax.
Get real John.
--
"Thank you...No." Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
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Posts:
755
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6/23/08
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(96 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 30, 2008 5:24 PM
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Obama is some piece of work. And today, he's working for the oil companies... Ok, maybe not, but you have to wonder about his motives when he says:
>Obama told the caucus, according to an attendee, "Nobody said this to me directly but I get the feeling from my talks that if the sanctions don?t work Israel is going to strike Iran." Others in the room recall this as well.
I mean what's the deal? Is he purposefully attempting to strike fear into the heart of the oil market and drive prices higher for Americans? And just who's agenda does that serve? Is it for big oil? Is it for Environmentalists? or is it simple stupidity?
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Posts:
2
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7/28/08
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(95 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 28, 2008 9:29 PM
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We must not forget that the refinery capacity is not up to speed as they claim the other reason for high prices is supply and demand. To drill anywhere will not do any good if the refineries can't handle even the present amount of oil.
Bush stated that no one wanted to invest in refineries due to regulations. Before they drill anywhere here they need to get more refineries up and running with regulations.
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2,323
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4/4/08
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(94 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 27, 2008 3:23 AM
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actually it does not matter how many different interests there are with the gasoline prices because all it would take is for the democrats pass the right for off-shore drilling.
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Edited by Johnsson at 07/27/2008 12:23 AM PDT
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Posts:
128
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4/9/08
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(93 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 26, 2008 1:09 AM
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Gasoline prices are dictated by so many different interests, it would be hard to nail down one single issue as the reason for our gas price headaches.
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Posts:
44
Registered:
7/24/08
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(92 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 7:32 PM
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Q&A: Oil prices and the economy
The price of crude oil has hit record
levels in recent weeks [AFP]
With oil prices having more than doubled over the last 12 months, various reasons are being cited for the price increases.
Adhip Chaudhuri, a visiting professor of economics at Georgetown University's campus in Doha, Qatar, explains the cause and effect of high oil prices.
Is the increase in oil prices plunging the global economy into stagflation?
The United States is, for all practical purposes, in a recession. The European Union's growth rates are being revised downwards below 2 per cent. The shine is coming off even China, India and Korea.
The recessions and the low growth rates represent stagnation and hence connote the 'stag' part of "stagflation", and high oil prices have a lot do with it.
Oil prices, together with simultaneous, huge increases in food prices, have increased worldwide inflation rates. Both China and India now have high inflation rates with China at almost 8 per cent and India at 11 per cent. The rising inflation is the "flation" part of "stagflation".
The worse thing about stagflation is that the central banks find themselves in a dilemma. If they lowered interest rates to spur growth, they would raise inflationary expectations. On the other hand, if they fought inflation by raising interest rates, the reduction in money supply will have contractionary effects on the GDPs of their countries.
For policymakers stagflation is a "lose - lose" situation.
Is the growth in world demand for oil the main reason?
Demand is one part of what the money market calls "fundamentals". The other is, of course, supply. In the opinion of the Bush administration, and the majority of the Wall Street establishment in the US, demand is the principal reason why oil prices are going up astronomically. However, this point of view does not correspond to facts.
Consider first the oft-mentioned demand from "China and India" which is frequently put forward as the principal reason why oil prices are going up.
Subsidies have insulated consumers in India and China from high oil prices
until recently [AFP]
According to official statistics published by the United States government, China consumed an additional 377,000 barrels of oil per day during 2007.
However, during the same time period Germany and Japan together decreased their consumption by 380,000, and hence, the net effect of China?s increased consumption is zero.
Even if China doubled its consumption in the first half of 2008, say to stockpile for the Olympics, the increment would be a drop in the bucket of total world consumption of 86 million barrels per day.
The same is true of India. It increased consumption by only 150,000 barrels per day during 2007, which is virtually indiscernible in the total world demand.
Notice also that the sum of additional consumption from "China and India" barely exceeds 500,000 barrels, an amount that Saudi Arabia has promised to increase production by.
Finally, the US has projected that the net increase in oil consumption during 2008 will increase by one million barrels per day, which is about 1.1 per cent. How can such a small increase in demand increase oil prices by 100 per cent between July 2007 and July 2008?
What is happening with the supply of oil?
The supply of crude oil has been remarkably stagnant over the last three years. According to official US statistics, the production of crude worldwide was 84.63 million barrels per day in 2005, and it was 84.55 million barrels per day in 2007. Thus, even small increases in demand over the last three years have put upward pressures on prices.
The near-term supply situation, according to the International Energy Agency, is not all that bad. Saudi Arabia will be adding to their capacity, deepwater Nigerian production will start in 2008, and Iraqi production will see an increase. If one added up the growth in all forms of energy, namely crude oil, natural gas, and biofuels, according to IEA there should be an increase in supply capacity of 1.5 million barrels during 2008.
Notice that amount of increase in supply is greater than the projected increase in demand for 2008 amounting to 1 million barrels per day. The supply projection for 2009 is even better. The supply capacity is expected to increase by 2.5 million barrels, which will outstrip the growth in demand comfortably.
It is the very short-term supply disruptions which seem to be more important for an increase in oil prices. Real disruptions may come from labour strikes in Venezuela, hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico, and rebel attacks in Nigeria. Given that the demand and supply situation is so tight, even the slightest of bad news can increase the price of oil in the futures and spot markets noticeably.
Can the weak dollar be blamed for high oil prices?
Asserting that the "weak dollar" is a significant reason behind the rise in oil prices has become as ritualistic as asserting that "China and India" are the cause. And yet, the forces which determine the foreign exchange value of the dollar against the euro, the yen, or the pound are distinctively different from those that determine the price of oil.
There is, however, one logical argument which can sometimes provide a sufficient explanation as to why a depreciating dollar and increasing oil prices are inversely related - If the dollar weakens against the euro, the ability of the oil-exporting countries to buy European goods will decline because their oil exports are denominated in dollars.
The Europeans, at the same time, will be able to pay the higher dollar prices of oil because the euro has appreciated. Clearly, to keep their purchasing power over European goods constant, the oil-exporting countries need an increase in oil price approximately equal to the depreciation of the dollar.
However, for the first six months of 2008 the dollar has depreciated against the euro by only 7.5 per cent, while oil prices have gone up by about 50 per cent.
Surely, both Americans and Europeans are paying much higher prices for oil than can be explained by a "weak dollar".
Is speculation, then, a major factor?
The energy ministers of Saudi Arabia and Qatar asserted for the first time in public at the recent Jeddah meeting of major oil producing and consuming nations, that speculation in the oil futures markets was the most important reason why current oil prices are going up.
The United States Senate has been holding hearings in front of several committees since 2006 on the lack of regulation and oversight by the official Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) one of the two locations for oil futures.
Speculation is seen as a major cause for oil price increases [AFP]
In a recent testimony to the Senate, a hedge fund trader presented data to show that outstanding speculative positions in all commodities futures has reached $250 billion by March 2008, as compared to only $13 billion at the end of 2003.
As far as speculation specifically in oil futures is concerned, representative Bart Stupak (Democrat-Michigan), the head of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, announced recently that 71 per cent of all oil futures were owned by institutional investors.
The institutional investors, which consist of but is not confined to state pension funds and university endowments from the United States, have been pouring funds into indexed commodity funds as part of a strategy of portfolio diversification.
The traditional assets, in which they would have otherwise invested in, namely stocks and bonds, have been yielding negative returns after inflation.
These investors can buy futures contracts with only a 5 per cent margin down payment. In addition the regulatory environment is very slack, filled with loopholes which bypass whatever few regulations that are on the books.
While there are dollar limits to positions that the institutional investors might take in the NYMEX, they are allowed to conduct "swaps" with the investment banks like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, and thereby manage to roll over their "buy" positions. This way they never have to take physical possession of the oil that they put in "buy" orders for.
If speculation is what is driving oil prices up, then it stands to reason that such high prices should lead to an excess supply of crude in the world. There are signs that such an excess supply is indeed building up, albeit slowly, much like the way the excess supply of housing emerged in the United States.
Fuel consumption has declined in the US sharply. We have already noted that oil consumption in Japan and Germany are actually decreasing.
Consumers in China and India have been insulated from the high world prices of oil until very recently with domestic subsidies. However, China has raised the prices of various petroleum products amounting to an average increase of 18 per cent, and so has India, by 13 per cent. The decrease in the demand for oil will start strengthening soon.
The biggest argument for speculation to be the single-most important cause for oil price increases in 2008 is: What else could have doubled the price of oil in one year?
Source
infoseek (a patriotic American), posted this a while back. Yes, I think he is one of the good guys.
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Posts:
755
Registered:
6/23/08
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(91 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 3:17 PM
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Army of One,
Your assertion isn't supported by the current use data that's out there.
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Posts:
44
Registered:
7/24/08
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(90 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 1:58 PM
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Will there be any MSM report the fact dramatic Japan and Germany's reductions actually offset China and India's increases of oil consumptions?
I don't think so.
BUSHED!
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Posts:
11,756
Registered:
11/27/04
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(89 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 1:53 PM
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> Face,
>
> >my taking a contrary position is based on consumer
> prices vs the consumption of emerging markets as the
> SOLE factor for rising costs.
>
> I believe I've already covered this. The margin of
> production is rapidly being consumed by emerging
> markets, depleting what little elasticity in the
> market that there is today. China and India are the
> primary growth consumers. At the same time,
> consumption across the board world wide has been
> increasing (although at a significantly slower pace
> than has been happening in either China or India.).
> The inability to provide more supply means that
> t pricing is inflating relative to the actual cost of
> production. It's being driven by the speed and the
> acceleration of the growth in these emerging
> markets.
>
> This creates the speculative nature of the current
> market. The speculation is being fueled by this
> dynamic. So, yes, the price is perceptually based,
> but it is still directly tied to the shrinking
> production margins that increased consumption demands.
i agree.
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755
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6/23/08
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(88 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 1:51 PM
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Face,
>my taking a contrary position is based on consumer prices vs the consumption of emerging markets as the SOLE factor for rising costs.
I believe I've already covered this. The margin of production is rapidly being consumed by emerging markets, depleting what little elasticity in the market that there is today. China and India are the primary growth consumers. At the same time, consumption across the board world wide has been increasing (although at a significantly slower pace than has been happening in either China or India.). The inability to provide more supply means that pricing is inflating relative to the actual cost of production. It's being driven by the speed and the acceleration of the growth in these emerging markets.
This creates the speculative nature of the current market. The speculation is being fueled by this dynamic. So, yes, the price is perceptually based, but it is still directly tied to the shrinking production margins that increased consumption demands.
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Posts:
11,756
Registered:
11/27/04
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(87 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 1:37 PM
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lug,
i have no problem with your assertions of need for new source of energy. my taking a contrary position is based on consumer prices vs the consumption of emerging markets as the SOLE factor for rising costs.
i think you have addressed my concerns directly with this post.
> The point being that consumption didn't have to
> "double" to equate to a doubling of the price. The
> price being driven by the non-elasticity of the
> supply curve here. Margins of production being
> outpaced by demand for more. Perceptual scarcity and
> concerns about supply stability driving the price
> ever higher.
>
right. a perception or speculative results.
without objection.
> >so please now explain how without any new leases for
> "drilling" or dearly needed new exploration or
> massive influx onto the market of new alt energy
> consumer prices have dropped?
>
> Bubble? Over speculation? Pick your term. Means
> the same thing. Point is that real cost of
> production is like $25 a barrel. The premium being
> attached to that is caused by several things, not the
> least of which being perceived scarcity in the
> market. So, even with prices dropping, the cost
> relative to the production cost is still grossly
> inflated.
again no objection.
i thank you for your honest reply.
--
100
--
Edited by facedecoolo at 07/25/2008 10:38 AM PDT
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Posts:
755
Registered:
6/23/08
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(86 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 9:01 AM
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Face,
>no actually you did "suggest". that's the exact word i'd use to describe this statement:
If you failed to interpret what was plainly written and made certain assumptions based from you inability to understand what was written, certainly sounds like a personal issue of yours to me.
My original statement stands, the idea that exploration for additional oil reserves not being necessary is childish. The resulting chaos from not being able to supply sufficient energy resources should be the ultimate test for action.
Other gems from your post:
>are you now "suggesting" oil consumption vs production has DOUBLED since last year?
Actually, no. I didn't. What I said was:
>The barrel price of oil is DOUBLE the price since last year. The value of the dollar to the Euro is down less than 20%.
The relationship between price and ultimate consumption was never mentioned, although assumed, again by you, to be the factor here. Your assertion that oil consumption was down in Europe isn't supported, CIA worldbook shows yearly consumption by country rising year to year across all countries in Europe. The largest yearly rise occurring in Asia, however, where China and India are fast closing in on the total consumption figures for Europe and the US.
The point being that consumption didn't have to "double" to equate to a doubling of the price. The price being driven by the non-elasticity of the supply curve here. Margins of production being outpaced by demand for more. Perceptual scarcity and concerns about supply stability driving the price ever higher.
>so please now explain how without any new leases for "drilling" or dearly needed new exploration or massive influx onto the market of new alt energy consumer prices have dropped?
Bubble? Over speculation? Pick your term. Means the same thing. Point is that real cost of production is like $25 a barrel. The premium being attached to that is caused by several things, not the least of which being perceived scarcity in the market. So, even with prices dropping, the cost relative to the production cost is still grossly inflated.
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Posts:
11,756
Registered:
11/27/04
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(85 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 25, 2008 5:28 AM
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> Face,
>
> >this myth that there is some sort of halt to oil
> exploration is "insane". you are conflating leases
> for new land with not exploring.
>
> Actually, I didn't even suggest it.
no actually you did "suggest". that's the exact word i'd use to describe this statement:
" To the original post.
>
> The idea that somehow exploration for oil is not
> necessary is childish. Reliance on current proven
> supplies is insane."
Having some stupid perochial
> argument about where, or with what resources most
> certainly doesn't get any exploration done.
totally irrelevant to anyone's assertions here. to "get any exploration done" hasn't been couched....until now.
So, to
> you point, I don't care. If you think there's oil on
> the already leased lands, I'd say, get a loan, and go
> for it.
>
should be as easy as that too, right? just get a loan to start up an oil business on someone else's leased land, right? good idea.
> >there are more than a dozen environmental groups and
> thousands of scientists who don't see oil consumption
> as the "ONLY cause catastrophic global climate
> change".
>
> HA! This statement is such a bold faced lie and
> distortion of the environmental debate as to be
> publicly laughable. This is, and remains the
> singular focus of the environmentalist crowd.
speaking for the crowd now are ya? the bold faced lie is your nonsense that oil consumption is "the singular focus of the environmentalist crowd".
The
> reduction of the CO2 load into the atmosphere as
> propogated by power and public consumption of
> hydrocarbons remains the principle issue of the
> global catastrophic climate change folks.
a bit of back pedaling here. we went from single focus to principle issue.
>
> >while china and india are adding to the global
> demand for oil, that is just one of the factors for
> increases in consumer prices.
>
> Ok, so it's the one factor that actually is driving
> the demand curve harder than anything else. You
> dispute this? The devaluation of the dollar has
> little is anything to do with the actual value of oil
> going up. The cost by Euro is still higher even
> given the devaluation of the dollar. Your
> explanation somehow assumes a static relationship
> which is simply not true. The barrel price of oil is
> DOUBLE the price since last year. The value of the
> dollar to the Euro is down less than 20%.
>
are you now "suggesting" oil consumption vs production has DOUBLED since last year?
> >this is a no where near certain.
>
> What, you know of an impending invasion we don't?
> You know of an impending economic collapse we don't?
ha! now playing stupid. it suits you. no, i'm not saying there will be invasions or collapse....that would be far fetched and exaggerated. but you are saying it is certain china and india's consumption is the SOLE factor in rising oil prices and there is no way for any nation, russia, china, mexico, saudi arabia etc etc to increase production to feed the needs of these particular expanding markets and the US must lease new land or consumer prices will go up.
total crap.
so please now explain how without any new leases for "drilling" or dearly needed new exploration or massive influx onto the market of new alt energy consumer prices have dropped?
maybe china and india went to sleep over the past week?
> ? China and India, and for that matter, Europe,
> Eurasia, the Middle East, Africa are ALL consuming
> more energy.
energy? gotcha.
well getting back to oil, according to the EIA, europe is not consuming more oil, in fact france, great britain, italy and germany had cut oil consumption in recent years. russia's consumption dropped dramatically over the past decade and japan has been stable.
>
> All you could come up with is some lame contradictory
> assertion that prices were being driven by corporate
> profits, when, your own citation doesn't agree with
> your assessment.
>
> Lame. Very lame.
like a badge of honor.
did you read the entire article?
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100
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Posts:
22,441
Registered:
9/5/01
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(84 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 24, 2008 4:57 PM
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> > > Rainy,
> > >
> > > Burying a thread with a copy and past of
> one of
> > > Cleo's monumental cut and paste epics to
> get you
> > out
> > > of a conversation is a little childish,
> don't
> > you
> > > think?
> >
> > Burying anything she doesn't like that has been
> said
> > "is" childish.
> > I had enough of it. Ignore has been working
> great.
> > Sorry, Rainy, if I hear that you have grown up I
> will
> > take you off Ignore.
> > Not that I expect you to care either way but you
> have
> > become too much.
> >
> > Another reason I put her on Ignore was to see if
> it
> > was just me she was getting to. Glad to see it
> isn't.
>
> ronnie- I have not used the Ignore button, but I do
> ignore her posts entirely.
> While scrolling down and seeing that name to appear-
> I am just scrolling down , no need of reading, too
> o repetitious and many times just vicious .
> I know there have always been disabled people on the
> boards, which is ok, but when one becomes a Forum
> terrorist of sorts, is way smarter to IGNORE. 
>
> --
> 4bee
Of course closet terrorists shouldn't not be ignored. It's better to know they are really out there in this country.
She is a sick woman.
Her childish name calling is a terrible example of an Obama supporter.
She makes the nice ones look bad.
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Posts:
24,167
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12/1/04
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(83 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 24, 2008 3:54 AM
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Smoke,
All good points, sad but true.
I hadn't clued into the 'many traffic stops' disqualifier as punitive to police work either. Cleverly racist. It seems to self-defeating that kind of behavior. People everywhere want their police departments to generally reflect their city's demographics. Good white people included want that.
I live near Kansas City, terrible mis-match in police that way. Way too many white police people and not nearly enough minority ones to reflect the people in the city. They should, obviously, stop the 'driving while black' harassment. I just read Obama got them to stop it in Illinois by making them note on every traffic stop the race of the driver so that made them 'tell on themselves' so to speak and it cut that crap waaayy down.
Otherwise they should recruit the hell out of the pool of candidates for whichever races are under-represented in their cities.
Sadly, as you mentioned how you feel, minority people Because they've been way more abused by police, courts, jail, don't want to be a part of the force.
But they could make the most difference. One of those catch-22s
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Posts:
139
Registered:
1/29/08
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(82 of 96)
Re: Gas Prices, Obama's Fault???
Jul 24, 2008 3:43 AM
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Now I see the larger motive for the unwarrented traffic stops. I just thought it was regular bigotry , but know I see it is a disqualifying factor for a LE job.
They working hard @ keeping the Brothers down & even harder denying that they are doing it!
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