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Jesus myth hypothesis

[Replies: 70]
"The more you begin to investigate what we think we understand, where we came from, what we think we're doing, the more you begin to see we've been lied to. We've been lied to by every institution.

"What makes you think that the religious institution is the only one that's never been touched? The religious institutions of this world are at the bottom of the dirt. The religious institutions in this world are put there by the same people who gave you your government, your corrupt education, who set up your international banking cartels. Because our masters don't give a damn about you or your family. All they care about is what they have always cared about and that's controlling the whole damn world.

"We have been misled away from the true and divine presence in the universe that men have called god. I don't know what god is but I know what he isn't, and unless and until you are prepared to look at the whole truth, and wherever it may go, whoever it may lead to, if you want to look the other way or if you want to play favorite, then somewhere along the line you're going to find out you're messing with divine justice. The more you educate yourself the more you understand where things come from the more obvious things become and you begin to see lies everywhere.

"You have to know the truth and seek the truth and the truth will set you free."



[They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority.
-G. Massey, Egyptologist]


"Because I gotta tell you the truth, folks, I gotta tell you the truth. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.

"Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

"But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!"




[PART I:
THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD]



This is the sun. As far back as 10 thousand B.C.E., history is abundant with carvings and writings reflecting peoples respect and adoration for this object. And it is simple to understand why as every morning the sun would rise, bringing vision, warmth, and security, saving man from the cold, blind, predator-filled darkness of night. Without it, the cultures understood, the crops would not grow, and life on the planet would not survive. These realities made the sun the most adorned object of all time. Likewise, they were also very aware of the stars. The tracking of the stars allowed them to recognize and anticipate events which occurred over long periods of time, such as eclipses and full moons. They in turn catalogued celestial groups into what we know today as constellations.

This is the cross of the Zodiac, one of the oldest conceptual images in human history. It reflects the sun as it figuratively passes through the 12 major constellations over the course of a year. It also reflects the 12 months of the year, the 4 seasons, and the solstices and equinoxes. The term Zodiac relates to the fact that constellations were anthropomorphized, or personified, as figures, or animals.

In other words, the early civilizations did not just follow the sun and stars, they personified them with elaborate myths involving their movements and relationships. The sun, with its life-giving and -saving qualities was personified as a representative of the unseen creator or god. It was known as "God's Sun," the light of the world, the savior of human kind. Likewise, the 12 constellations represented places of travel for God's Sun and were identified by names, usually representing elements of nature that happened during that period of time. For example, Aquarius, the water bearer, who brings the Spring rains.

This is Horus. He is the Sun God of Egypt of around 3000 BC. He is the sun, anthropomorphized, and his life is a series of allegorical myths involving the sun's movement in the sky. From the ancient hieroglyphics in Egypt, we know much about this solar messiah. For instance, Horus, being the sun, or the light, had an enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night. And metaphorically speaking, every morning Horus would win the battle against Set- while in the evening, Set would conquer Horus and send him into the underworld
It is important to note that "dark vs. light" or "good vs. evil" is one of the most ubiquitous mythological dualities ever known and is still expressed on many levels to this day.

Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th of the virgin Isis-Meri. His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior. At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry. Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days, and thus, resurrected.

These attributes of Horus, whether original or not, seem to permeate in many cultures of the world, for many other gods are found to have the same general mythological structure.

Attis, of Phyrigia, born of the virgin Nana on December 25th, crucified, placed in a tomb and after 3 days, was resurrected.

Krishna, of India, born of the virgin Devaki with a star in the east signaling his coming, performed miracles with his disciples, and upon his death was resurrected.

Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine, he was referred to as the "King of Kings," "God's Only Begotten Son," "The Alpha and Omega," and many others, and upon his death, he was resurrected.

Mithra, of Persia, born of a virgin on December 25th, he had 12 disciples and performed miracles, and upon his death was buried for 3 days and thus resurrected, he was also referred to as "The Truth," "The Light," and many others. Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

The fact of the matter is there are numerous saviors, from different periods, from all over the world, which subscribe to these general characteristics. The question remains: why these attributes, why the virgin birth on December 25th, why dead for three days and the inevitable resurrection, why 12 disciples or followers? To find out, let's examine the most recent of the solar messiahs.

Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary on December 25th in Bethlehem, his birth was announced by a star in the east, which three kings or magi followed to locate and adorn the new savior. He was a child teacher at 12, at the age of 30 he was baptized by John the Baptist, and thus began his ministry. Jesus had 12 disciples which he traveled about with performing miracles such as healing the sick, walking on water, raising the dead, he was also known as the "King of Kings," the "Son of God," the "Light of the World," the "Alpha and Omega," the "Lamb of God," and many others. After being betrayed by his disciple Judas and sold for 30 pieces of silver, he was crucified, placed in a tomb and after 3 days was resurrected and ascended into Heaven.

[Born of a virgin
Born on Dec. 25
Star in the East]

First of all, the birth sequence is completely astrological. The star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, which, on December 24, aligns with the 3 brightest stars in Orion's Belt. These 3 bright stars are called today what they were called in ancient times: The Three Kings. The Three Kings and the brightest star, Sirius, all point to the place of the sunrise on December 25th. This is why the Three Kings "follow" the star in the east, in order to locate the sunrise -- the birth of the sun.



The Virgin Mary is the constellation Virgo, also known as Virgo the Virgin. Virgo in Latin means virgin. The ancient glyph for Virgo is the altered "m". This is why Mary along with other virgin mothers, such as Adonis's mother Myrra, or Buddha's mother Maya begin with an M. Virgo is also referred to as the House of Bread, and the representation of Virgo is a virgin holding a sheaf of wheat. This House of Bread and its symbol of wheat represents August and September, the time of harvest. In turn, Bethlehem, in fact, literally translates to "house of bread". Bethlehem is thus a reference to the constellation Virgo, a place in the sky, not on Earth.



There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. By December 22nd, the Sun's demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it's lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun Gods share the crucifixion, 3-day death, and resurrection concept. It is the Sun's transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation.

However, they did not celebrate the resurrection of the Sun until the spring equinox, or Easter. This is because at the spring equinox, the Sun officially overpowers the evil darkness, as daytime thereafter becomes longer in duration than night, and the revitalizing conditions of spring emerge.

Now, probably the most obvious of all the astrological symbolism around Jesus regards the 12 disciples. They are simply the 12 constellations of the Zodiac, which Jesus, being the Sun, travels about with.

[Jesus in Zodiac - 11th century a.d.]

In fact, the number 12 is replete throughout the Bible. This text has more to do with astrology than anything else.



Coming back to the cross of the Zodiac, the figurative life of the Sun, this was not just an artistic expression or tool to track the Sun's movements. It was also a Pagan spiritual symbol, the shorthand of which looked like this. This is not a symbol of Christianity. It is a Pagan adaptation of the cross of the Zodiac. This is why Jesus in early occult art is always shown with his head on the cross, for Jesus is the Sun, the Sun of God, the Light of the World, the Risen Savior, who will "come again," as it does every morning, the Glory of God who defends against the works of darkness, as he is "born again" every morning, and can be seen "coming in the clouds," "up in Heaven," with his "Crown of Thorns," or, sun rays.



Now, of the many astrological-astronomical metaphors in the Bible, one of the most important has to do with the ages. Throughout the scripture there are numerous references to the "Age." In order to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. The ancient Egyptians along with cultures long before them recognized that approximately every 2150 years the sunrise on the morning of the spring equinox would occur at a different sign of the Zodiac. This has to do with a slow angular wobble that the Earth maintains as it rotates on it's axis. It is called a precession because the constellations go backwards, rather than through the normal yearly cycle. The amount of time that it takes for the precession to go through all 12 signs is roughly 25,765 years. This is also called the "Great Year," and ancient societies were very aware of this. They referred to each 2150 year period as an "age." From 4300 b.c. to 2150 b.c., it was the Age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 b.c. to 1 a.d., it was the Age of Aries, the Ram, and from 1 a.d. to 2150 a.d. it is the Age of Pisces, the age we are still in to this day, and in and around 2150, we will enter the new age: the Age of Aquarius.



Now, the Bible reflects, broadly speaking, a symbolic movement through 3 ages, while foreshadowing a 4th. In the Old Testament when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves. Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.



Now Jesus is the figure who ushers in the age following Aries, the Age of Pisces the Two Fish. Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament, as Jesus is known as the Great Fisherman, he feeds 5000 people with bread and "2 fish." When he begins his ministry walking along Galilei, he befriends 2 fisherman, who follow him. The Pope's Miter or hat is incontrovertibly a fish-head, representing Pisces. And I think we've all seen the Jesus-fish on the backs of people's cars. Little do they know what it actually means. It is a Pagan astrological symbolism for the Sun's Kingdom during the Age of Pisces. Also, Jesus' assumed birth date is essentially the start of this age.

At Luke 22:10 when Jesus is asked by his disciples where the next passover will be after he is gone, Jesus replied: "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in." This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the astrological references. The man bearing a pitcher of water is Aquarius, the water-bearer, who is always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. He represents the age after Pisces, and when the Sun (God's Sun) leaves the Age of Pisces (Jesus), it will go into the House of Aquarius, as Aquarius follows Pisces in the precession of the equinoxes. Also Jesus is saying is that after the Age of Pisces will come the Age of Aquarius.



Now, we have all heard about the end times and the end of the world. Apart from the cartoonish depictions in the Book of Revelation, the main source of this idea comes from Matthew 28:20, where Jesus says "I will be with you even to the end of the world." However, in King James Version, "world" is a mistranslation, among many mistranslations. The actual word being used is "aeon", which means "age." "I will be with you even to the end of the age." Which is true, as Jesus' Solar Piscean personification will end when the Sun enters the Age of Aquarius. The entire concept of end times and the end of the world is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Let's tell that to the approximately 100 million people in America who believe the end of the world is coming.

Furthermore, the character of Jesus, a literary and astrological hybrid, is most explicitly a plagiarization of the Egyptian Sun-god Horus. For example, inscribed about 3500 years, on the walls of the Temple of Luxor in Egypt are images of the enunciation, the immaculate conception, the birth, and the adoration of Horus. The images begin with Thaw announcing to the virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus, then Nef the holy ghost impregnating the virgin, and then the virgin birth and the adoration. This is exactly the story of Jesus' miracle conception. In fact, the literary similarities between Horus and Jesus are staggering.

And the plagiarism is continuous. The story of Noah and Noah's Ark is taken directly from tradition. The concept of a Great Flood is ubiquitous throughout the ancient world, with over 200 different cited claims in different periods and times. However, one need look no further for a pre-Christian source than the Epic of Gilgamesh, written in 2600 b.c. This story talks of a Great Flood commanded by God, an Ark with saved animals upon it, and even the release and return of a dove, all held in common with the biblical story, among many other similarities.

And then there is the plagiarized story of Moses. Upon Moses' birth, it is said that he was placed in a reed basket and set adrift in a river in order to avoid infanticide. He was later rescued by a daughter of royalty and raised by her as a Prince. This baby in a basket story was lifted directly from the myth of Sargon of Akkad of around 2250 b.c. Sargon was born, placed in a reed basket in order to avoid infanticide, and set adrift in a river. He was in turn rescued and raised by Akki, a royal mid-wife.

Furthermore, Moses is known as the Law Giver, the giver of the Ten Commandments, the Mosaic Law. However, the idea of a Law being passed from God to a prophet on a mountain is also a very old motif. Moses is just a law giver in a long line of law givers in mythological history. In India, Manou was the great law giver. In Crete, Minos ascended Mount Dicta, where Zeus gave him the sacred laws. While in Egypt there was Mises, who carried stone tablets and upon them the laws of god were written.

And as far as the Ten Commandments, they are taken outright from Spell 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. What the Book of the Dead phrased "I have not stolen" became "Thou shall not steal," "I have not killed" became "Thou shall not kill," "I have not told lies" became "Thou shall not bare false witness" and so forth. In fact, the Egyptian religion is likely the primary foundational basis for the Judeo-Christian theology. Baptism, afterlife, final judgment, virgin birth and resurrection, crucifixion, the ark of the covenant, circumcision, saviors, holy communion, the great flood, Easter, Christmas, Passover, and many many more, are all attributes of Egyptian ideas, long created in Christianity and Judaism.



Justin Martyr, one of the first Christian historians and defenders, wrote: "When we say that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into Heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those who you esteem Sons of Jupiter." In a different writing, Justin Martyr said "He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you believe of Perseus." It's obvious that Justin and other early Christians knew how similar Christianity was to the Pagan religions. However, Justin had a solution. As far as he was concerned, the Devil did it. The Devil had the foresight to come before Christ, and create these characteristics in the Pagan world.


Fundamentalist Christianity, fascinating. These people actually believe the World is 12,000 years old. I actually asked one of these guys: "Ok, dinosaur fossils?" He says: "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith!" ... "I think God put you here to test my faith dude!"

[Which way to the Ark?]

The Bible is nothing more than an astro-theological literary fold hybrid, just like nearly all religious myths before it. In fact, the aspect of transference, of one character's attributes to a new character, can be found within the book itself. In the Old Testament there's the story of Joseph. Joseph was a prototype for Jesus. Joseph was born of a miracle birth, Jesus was born of a miracle birth. Joseph was of 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples. Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver. Brother "Judah" suggests the sale of Joseph, disciple "Judas" suggests the sale of Jesus. Joseph began his work at the age of 30, Jesus began his work at the age of 30. The parallels go on and on.

Furthermore, is there any non-Biblical historical evidence of any person, living with the name Jesus, the Son of Mary, who traveled about with 12 followers, healing people and the like? There are numerous historians who lived in and around the Mediterranean either during or soon after the assumed life of Jesus. How many of these historians document this figure? Not one. However, to be fair, that doesn?t mean defenders of the Historical Jesus haven?t claimed the contrary. Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus?s existence. Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus and the first three. Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to the Christus or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the ?Anointed one? The fourth source is Josephus and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years. Sadly, it is still sited as truth.
You would think that a guy who rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven for all eyes to see and performed the wealth of miracles acclaimed to him would have made it into the historical record. It didn't because once the evidence is weighed, there are very high odds that the figure known as Jesus, did not even exist.


["The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the sun."]
We don't want to be unkind, but we want to be factual. We don't want to cause hurt feelings, but we want to be academically correct, in what we understand and know to be true. Christianity just is not based on the truth. We find that Christianity was in fact nothing more than a Roman story, developed politically.

The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect, and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea. It was during this meeting that the politically motivated Christian Doctrines were established and thus began a long history of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. And for the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political stranglehold on all of Europe, leading to such joyous periods as the Dark Ages, along with enlightening events such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition.

Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It served to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority.

["Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery."]

It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish.
A myth is an idea that, while widely believed, is false. In a deeper sense, in the religious sense, a myth serves as an orienting and mobilizing story for people. The focus is not on the story's relation to reality, but on it's function. A story cannot function unless it is believed to be true in the community or the nation. It is not a matter of debate that some people have the bad taste to raise the question of the truth of the sacred story. The keepers of the faith won't enter into debate with them. They ignore them or denounce them as blasphemers.

ZEITGEIST

--
He's only a pawn in their game.
Last Post Aug 12, 2008 1:52 PM by: GPDriver
GPDriver
Posts: 940
Registered: 12/18/07
(71 of 71)

Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Aug 12, 2008 1:52 PM
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All in all, I put a lot of trust in the truth of the gospels core messages (Sermon on the Mount, Jesus life outline, etc) for those reasons, but my biggest argument is that I find it near unbelievable that the Christian faith would have spread so quickly among Jews in Jerusalem, ppl who knew what happened, if based on lies.

It's one thing to agree with the Jesus' "core messages" which would denote an agreement in the spirituality/philosophy of the texts and not in the religion itself.

It's another to say it's POPULARITY proves it is the truth, rather than the religious proclamation of infallibility.

You're brain is trying to cope with your belief vs your reason. The two will never agree, by nature.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 3:56 PM
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> Let me muddy up that water a bit.. ;]
>
> Mainstream scholarship has dated all the gospels
> except Mark after 70 AD which would rule out
> authorship by an apostle. But they do this on the
> basis that the other gospels clearly quote Jesus
> predicting the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, and
> based on the assumption that Jesus couldn't actually
> predict the future - date them after that. I'm not
> willing to assume that, so I don't put much weight in
> those estimates.


So accepted mainstream scholarship that says the Gospels were written later...but you don't put too much weight in that. But when the accepted mainstream scholarship tells you there is nothing to the Mithra/Horus/etc. similarities with Christianity, well then they are spot on.;)

>
> And there are scholars, Carsten Thiede is one, who
> argue the gospels were composed much earlier based on
> their own dating of manuscripts -


There are Gospel manuscripts that date back earlier than 70AD? I thought the earliest transcripts known were @ the time of Constantine.

> so it's an open
> question I'd say. But Mark is traditionally believed
> to be the apostle Peter's story, written down by his
> scribe/student Mark and the mainstream dating of the
> gospel makes this more than possible. So there's some
> weight in that, plus all the gospels are believed to
> be based on an earlier book scholars call "Q," a
> hypothesized loose collection of Jesus' sayings and
> deeds the gospels appear to quote from. Then you've
> also got another earlier document which would push
> the original writing dates even further back. On top
> of that, there's also Paul's letters - written not
> long at all after the events, which record the same
> ideas the gospels express.
>
> All in all, I put a lot of trust in the truth of the
> gospels core messages (Sermon on the Mount, Jesus
> life outline, etc) for those reasons, but my biggest
> argument is that I find it near unbelievable that the
> Christian faith would have spread so quickly among
> Jews in Jerusalem, ppl who knew what happened, if
> based on lies.


Well, the Christian faith did not really spread like that....not anything that resembles Christian faith as we know it. There were all kinds of sects with competing ideas, each doing whatever it took to make their point, get their ideas across. For all we know, there was nothing godly about the stories until at least two generations later.

I take it all with a grain of salt. Take the Gnostic Gospels, for example. Catholics freak out at the thought of them being "right" and theirs being "wrong". They are so blindly sure that Constantine and his peeps picked the only right Gospels to include in the Bible. But it seems much more logical to me, since the whole intention was to spread Christianity, one would include what is most palatable, most attention-grabbing, most effective...not necessarily what was most "accurate". Add to that the sensibilities of the day, and it's easy to see why the Gospel according to Mary (Magdalene) was excluded, lol.

--
"If you're gonna survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is."
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 3:38 PM
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> Just that there's no basis for them. Their only
> source is amateur/armchair historians from the last
> hundred years - but no original texts or copies of
> them.


I don't know enough to comment on their credentials, honestly....nor on the creds of those opposed.

> The most compelling ones (12 disciples, born of
> a virgin, etc.) are almost all entirely made up or
> gross distortions...e.g Mithras was born of a virgin
> technically, but nobody mentions his birth mother was
> a rock. Or that Osiris was resurrected, but by his
> mom collecting his body parts and sewing him together
> after his dad chopped him up (hardly a Christian
> 'resurrection').


Well....I don't think anyone was saying the story is exactly the same, but that the themes were the same, like the virgin birth and the resurrection....and that is an odd coincidence, imo. I would venture to guess that each resurrection story is different, other than that they were resurrected. That seems to be a common thing among all gods....immortality.

> > I would expect skeptics to make the same point,
> no?
>
> good point.. sort of tricky. Typically I associate
> the term skeptic with atheists, etc...people whose
> bias would appreciate claims like these. But I guess
> to their credit the skeptics on that board actually
> live up to the meaning of the term.


I hear what you're saying. In the spirit of full disclosure, I was born and raised Catholic, and now I guess I'm agnostic.

But just as you ascribe a certain bias to atheists, the same could be said of believers, imo. Their bias would NOT appreciate claims like these, ya know?

> In any case
> though I asked some religious studies (secular, not
> theology) professors about this a few years back and
> was damn near embarrassed by the look they gave me -
> which is what really hardened my view on this.


Ah, so I take it it wasn't a good look, lol.

> But on the subject of out-there fantastical claims,
> have you seen those Egyptian carvings that look like
> planes, helicopters, astronauts, etc? pic w/
> skeptics explanation I don't buy
Creeps me
> out...


Stargate! LOL

>
> Thanks for the book recommendation btw, just checked
> it out :]


Oh good! I found it interesting, and there is nothing fantastical about it....it's very grounded.

--
"If you're gonna survive out here, you've got to know where your towel is."
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 3:19 PM
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> Embelished after his time....no. There is not a
> single gospel that was written at the time of Jesus.
> In fact not one of the Gospels is written by an
> apostle of christ. The earliest was written 50 years
> after his death and by all accounts the writer never
> met Jesus.


Let me muddy up that water a bit.. ;]

Mainstream scholarship has dated all the gospels except Mark after 70 AD which would rule out authorship by an apostle. But they do this on the basis that the other gospels clearly quote Jesus predicting the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, and based on the assumption that Jesus couldn't actually predict the future - date them after that. I'm not willing to assume that, so I don't put much weight in those estimates.

And there are scholars, Carsten Thiede is one, who argue the gospels were composed much earlier based on their own dating of manuscripts - so it's an open question I'd say. But Mark is traditionally believed to be the apostle Peter's story, written down by his scribe/student Mark and the mainstream dating of the gospel makes this more than possible. So there's some weight in that, plus all the gospels are believed to be based on an earlier book scholars call "Q," a hypothesized loose collection of Jesus' sayings and deeds the gospels appear to quote from. Then you've also got another earlier document which would push the original writing dates even further back. On top of that, there's also Paul's letters - written not long at all after the events, which record the same ideas the gospels express.

All in all, I put a lot of trust in the truth of the gospels core messages (Sermon on the Mount, Jesus life outline, etc) for those reasons, but my biggest argument is that I find it near unbelievable that the Christian faith would have spread so quickly among Jews in Jerusalem, ppl who knew what happened, if based on lies.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 2:54 PM
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> I don't get what makes them so scurrilous.

Just that there's no basis for them. Their only source is amateur/armchair historians from the last hundred years - but no original texts or copies of them. The most compelling ones (12 disciples, born of a virgin, etc.) are almost all entirely made up or gross distortions...e.g Mithras was born of a virgin technically, but nobody mentions his birth mother was a rock. Or that Osiris was resurrected, but by his mom collecting his body parts and sewing him together after his dad chopped him up (hardly a Christian 'resurrection').

> > worse) from scholars. Here's a forum on Richard > > Dawkins BB where some skeptics make the same point.

> I would expect skeptics to make the same point, no?

good point.. sort of tricky. Typically I associate the term skeptic with atheists, etc...people whose bias would appreciate claims like these. But I guess to their credit the skeptics on that board actually live up to the meaning of the term. In any case though I asked some religious studies (secular, not theology) professors about this a few years back and was damn near embarrassed by the look they gave me - which is what really hardened my view on this.

> > I think the author, but certainly I and most people,
> > would be happy with any copies of texts backingup
> > these claims. But they don't exist.


> The same could be said for the ancient Egyptian
> texts, right?


We have copies of a fuckton of Egyptian texts thanks to the dry climate, but afaik none of them contain these claims.

But on the subject of out-there fantastical claims, have you seen those Egyptian carvings that look like planes, helicopters, astronauts, etc? pic w/ skeptics explanation I don't buy Creeps me out...

Thanks for the book recommendation btw, just checked it out :]

--
Edited by thehipi at 07/29/2008 12:00 PM PDT
MarkMiller
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 2:34 AM
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> Well it was a good topic while it lasted , but
> unfortunately I must withdraw. I'm tired of getting
> notifications & checking the topic , only to read
> about thespian credits.
>
> Thank you for what was an informative topic. :)


Ooops, hadn't thought about that. Sorry for my participation.....but just remember in the future that conversations here are very fluid....sometimes they go off track....and then return.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 2:16 AM
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Well it was a good topic while it lasted , but unfortunately I must withdraw. I'm tired of getting notifications & checking the topic , only to read about thespian credits.

Thank you for what was an informative topic. :)
MarkMiller
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 2:07 AM
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Ah....different production.

STC?s 1987 specially commissioned adaptation of the Dickens classic, by Richard Hellesen. Music was written by STC?s then resident composer David de Berry.

De Barry passed away. He has a monument in front of the theatre now. RIP.

--
Edited by MarkMiller at 07/28/2008 11:08 PM PDT
Nemeses2008
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:46 AM
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Bob clark directed and helped Jean Sheperd write the script....
died in April last year and Jean Sheppard died back in 99. He also was the narrator in the movie.

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Edited by Nemeses2008 at 07/28/2008 10:48 PM PDT
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:45 AM
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They're not going to find Jesus's body. The apostles made sure of that.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:44 AM
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He lived. The Romans kept records.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:42 AM
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If it's known where Joseph and Mary are buried as well they could do dna checks, right? I think they can do dna work on lots older remains than 2k years.
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:40 AM
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The tomb wasn't enough to prove to critics that he actually lived?
MarkMiller
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:40 AM
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> Well, aside from the supernatural stories in the
> Bible, people do believe there was actually a human
> man named Jesus, right? So what do they say happened
> to his human body, where is he buried? That would be
> the proof to prove he wasn't a myth, right?


OK....here is the tomb of Jesus. Now what?
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Re: Jesus myth hypothesis

Jul 29, 2008 1:36 AM
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Well, aside from the supernatural stories in the Bible, people do believe there was actually a human man named Jesus, right? So what do they say happened to his human body, where is he buried? That would be the proof to prove he wasn't a myth, right?
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