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Posts:
1,782
Registered:
4/11/08
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(22 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 24, 2008 8:41 PM
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Isn't Anbar just one of the provinces which benefitted from the surge? I believe there were others that followed, no?
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Posts:
2,179
Registered:
10/21/07
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(21 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 24, 2008 7:17 PM
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> The Surge was to buy time by reducing
> violence...nothing more & nothing less......didn't
> the Sunni decide to rejoin the government just
> recently?
Another LIE. What was the surge buying time for? Batman to arrive? Wesley Snipes? Chuck Norris?
The surge simply replaced soliders that were on their second and third tours.
The reasons I listed are the reasons why violence has made a slight decrease, and those are facts. The surge worked sounds good on Fox hardly News but, it's still hardly the truth.
--
" I don't know it all.... maybe, you just don't know enough."
- Russell
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Posts:
1,339
Registered:
2/22/08
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(20 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:41 PM
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> Without the surge, would its sucess have continued?
>
> Just a guess, but i think Al-qaeda may have been
> caught off guard by the momentjume generated by the
> Awakening....has al-qaeda had time to regroup.....who
> knows?
well, i think the surge "worked" in a way because there were so many troops on the ground. it was simply more difficult to commit violence, just like it's harder for muggers to steal from people on the streets if there's more cops on the street.
now that the troop presence has begun to shrink, al qaeda may be slowly rising back to power in anbar. the u.s. keeps pushing back the date of the province's handover to iraqi security forces.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92383795
http://www.metimes.com/Security/2008/07/15/iraqs_anbar_province_growing_tense/acd5/
http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Iraq-attack-kills-six-209794580.html
--
"What is a man, if his chief good and market of his time be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Surely, He that made us with such large discourse, looking before and after, gave us not that capability and God-like reason to fust in us unused."
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Posts:
7,735
Registered:
6/12/07
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(19 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:34 PM
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> > But is McCain really suffering from a
> fundamental
> > misunderstanding? The Awakening started
> gathering
> > steam around the summer of 2006...the Surge was
> > announced Jan of 2007...both were well underway
> for a
> > long time before positive results could be
> seen.
>
> actually, positive results were seen in anbar before
> the surge was even announced. by october of '06,
> sunni cooperation with u.s. forces had skyrocketed.
> by december, 3 whole "emergency response battalions"
> " of sunni troops were successfully fighting
> al-qaeda.
Without the surge, would its sucess have continued?
Just a guess, but i think Al-qaeda may have been caught off guard by the momentjume generated by the Awakening....has al-qaeda had time to regroup.....who knows?
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Posts:
7,735
Registered:
6/12/07
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(18 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:30 PM
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> > Now, Obama?s failure to acknowledge the success
> of
> > the surge?..that is some serious
> misunderstanding
> > going on there. 
>
>
> This is just a lie. Nothing more, nothing
> less.
>
> On average, 20 civilians die a day in political
> violence and there are 600 attacks a month on U.S and
> Iraqi troops.
>
> The attacks in southern Iraq went down because
> British troops were withdrawn.
>
> Deaths in Baghdad dropped because Sunni and Shiites
> were seperate (and given money NOT to shoot at
> us).
>
> The U.S. also stopped raiding homes, you know,
> kicking down doors and engaging in firefights.
>
> There has been NO political reconcilation...
> the REASON behind the surge.
>
> Now, you call that............"working"?
>
> --
The Surge was to buy time by reducing violence...nothing more & nothing less......didn't the Sunni decide to rejoin the government just recently?
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Posts:
459
Registered:
6/23/08
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(17 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:21 PM
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>This is just a lie. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wow, what can you say to someone who's this conflicted??
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Posts:
1,339
Registered:
2/22/08
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(16 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:21 PM
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> But is McCain really suffering from a fundamental
> misunderstanding? The Awakening started gathering
> steam around the summer of 2006...the Surge was
> announced Jan of 2007...both were well underway for a
> long time before positive results could be seen.
actually, positive results were seen in anbar before the surge was even announced. by october of '06, sunni cooperation with u.s. forces had skyrocketed. by december, 3 whole "emergency response battalions" of sunni troops were successfully fighting al-qaeda.
interestingly enough, i would guess that mccain would have been AGAINST the strategy that led to victory in anbar. now this is just a guess based on his other positions. the sunnis who cooperated with the u.s. were largely former baathists (sadaam's party). earlier, many sunnis in anbar had supported al-qaeda (who are also sunni). i think it would be safe to consider this region of al-qaeda sympathizers and former sadaam hussein loyalists as enemies of the united states, the kind that mccain refuses to negotiate with. yet colonel mcfarland negotiated with them, against the advice of several marine commanders who considered it a "deal with the devil." eventually, a loose alliance was set up and violence was brought down.
so yes, i would say mccain has a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation in iraq.
--
"What is a man, if his chief good and market of his time be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Surely, He that made us with such large discourse, looking before and after, gave us not that capability and God-like reason to fust in us unused."
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Posts:
2,179
Registered:
10/21/07
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(15 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 7:13 PM
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> Now, Obama?s failure to acknowledge the success of
> the surge?..that is some serious misunderstanding
> going on there.
This is just a lie. Nothing more, nothing less.
On average, 20 civilians die a day in political violence and there are 600 attacks a month on U.S and Iraqi troops.
The attacks in southern Iraq went down because British troops were withdrawn.
Deaths in Baghdad dropped because Sunni and Shiites were seperate (and given money NOT to shoot at us).
The U.S. also stopped raiding homes, you know, kicking down doors and engaging in firefights.
There has been NO political reconcilation... the REASON behind the surge.
Now, you call that............"working"?
--
" I don't know it all.... maybe, you just don't know enough."
- Russell
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Posts:
7,735
Registered:
6/12/07
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(14 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 6:58 PM
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> > Let me see if I get the point of this thread
> > straight:
> >
> > When Obama makes a mistake, it's just a gaffe
> and has
> > nothing to do with his lack of experience or
> > knowledge.
> >
> > When McCain makes a mistake, it's due to his
> lack of
> > experience and knowledge and not a gaffe.
>
> let's not play dumb.
>
> obviously, obama doesn't think that there's 57
> states. that's a gaffe, an embarassing but innocent
> misstatement.
>
> obviously, mccain DOES think that the anbar awakening
> was a result of the surge. even today he's not
> backing down. that's not a gaffe, because he didn't
> simply not get across what he meant, he actually
> based his argument on untrue facts that he thought
> were true.
>
> i shouldn't have to try to explain the
> difference...and i think you know better.
But is McCain really suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding? The Awakening started gathering steam around the summer of 2006...the Surge was announced Jan of 2007...both were well underway for a long time before positive results could be seen.
Personally, I think one would fail without the other. I would chalk McCain statements up to simple campaign rhetoric and nothing more than that.
Now, Obama?s failure to acknowledge the success of the surge?..that is some serious misunderstanding going on there.
--
Edited by rdfan at 07/23/2008 3:58 PM PDT
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Posts:
1,339
Registered:
2/22/08
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(13 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 6:40 PM
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> Let me see if I get the point of this thread
> straight:
>
> When Obama makes a mistake, it's just a gaffe and has
> nothing to do with his lack of experience or
> knowledge.
>
> When McCain makes a mistake, it's due to his lack of
> experience and knowledge and not a gaffe.
let's not play dumb.
obviously, obama doesn't think that there's 57 states. that's a gaffe, an embarassing but innocent misstatement.
obviously, mccain DOES think that the anbar awakening was a result of the surge. even today he's not backing down. that's not a gaffe, because he didn't simply not get across what he meant, he actually based his argument on untrue facts that he thought were true.
i shouldn't have to try to explain the difference...and i think you know better.
--
"What is a man, if his chief good and market of his time be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Surely, He that made us with such large discourse, looking before and after, gave us not that capability and God-like reason to fust in us unused."
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Posts:
21,782
Registered:
9/5/01
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(12 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunders
Jul 23, 2008 6:38 PM
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> Let me see if I get the point of this thread
> straight:
>
> When Obama makes a mistake, it's just a gaffe and has
> nothing to do with his lack of experience or
> knowledge.
>
> When McCain makes a mistake, it's due to his lack of
> experience and knowledge and not a gaffe.
>
>
> Of course, this is a fair & objective analysis of the
> facts, right?
You got that straight.
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Posts:
7,735
Registered:
6/12/07
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(11 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 6:37 PM
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>
> mccain's spokesman added this:
>
> "If Barack Obama had had his way, the Sheiks who
> started the Awakening would have been murdered at the
> hands of al Qaeda."
>
> which might have been a decent point, if it weren't
> for the fact that the sheik who started the awakening
> WAS murdered DURING the surge. so obviously mccain
> is flat out wrong on anbar. and that's not a gaffe.
>
Of course, a case can be made that if the surge was not happening, many more sheiks could have been murdered and the Awakening would have been crushed.
Now who is wrong?
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Posts:
3,029
Registered:
3/8/08
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(10 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunders
Jul 23, 2008 6:37 PM
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rdfan........
it appears this is a flip of a flop of an Obama supporter.....
as usual they once again have it all wrong......
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Posts:
7,735
Registered:
6/12/07
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(9 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 6:35 PM
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Let me see if I get the point of this thread straight:
When Obama makes a mistake, it's just a gaffe and has nothing to do with his lack of experience or knowledge.
When McCain makes a mistake, it's due to his lack of experience and knowledge and not a gaffe.
Of course, this is a fair & objective analysis of the facts, right?
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Posts:
1,339
Registered:
2/22/08
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(8 of 22)
Re: McCain's Mistaken Timeline: "Not a Gaffe, A Fundamental Misunderstanding"
Jul 23, 2008 6:18 PM
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> Yes,
>
> I see where you're going with this. So, when Obama
> makes allusions to the surge not working, that would
> be an example of the kind of "constant confusion
> about foreign policy" you're refering to??
obama has claimed that the troop surge is not soley responsible for the decrease in violence, and it's not. as obama pointed out, the anbar awakening happened before the surge and is proof that situations began improving when cooperation with sunnis increased, not just when troop levels increased.
and then of course mccain said that the anbar awakening was a result of the surge that happened a year later. he doesn't seem to realize that the cause has to come before the effect.
surprisingly, today mccain did not back down from this statement, and instead tried to spin his way out of it by saying that the anbar awakening couldn't have been sustained without the surge, even though very few troops from the surge went to anbar.
mccain's spokesman added this:
"If Barack Obama had had his way, the Sheiks who started the Awakening would have been murdered at the hands of al Qaeda."
which might have been a decent point, if it weren't for the fact that the sheik who started the awakening WAS murdered DURING the surge. so obviously mccain is flat out wrong on anbar. and that's not a gaffe.
--
"What is a man, if his chief good and market of his time be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Surely, He that made us with such large discourse, looking before and after, gave us not that capability and God-like reason to fust in us unused."
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