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When I saw the first episodes and how Captain America was portrayed, I guessed that Evan Wright had created a composite character in Captain America as a way to depict the stupid mistakes he saw through his period with the First Recon I just bought the book and I must say, I am still in shock to learn that Captain America is a real person!!
How come the Marines allow this type of marine to advance to leadership positions because I am with Ray Person, "can't believe" such a stupid, stupid man, " is in charge of people".
Could anyone of knowledge how the military works, explain what is at play that allowed Captain America to advance to leadership positions?
One good thing that ideally could follow from the book and the series is that the leadership in the Marines reviews their procedures and avoid rewarding bad leaders.
Nate Fick and Brad Colbert are courageous and brillieant men. I wish Nate would be running for president or get an assigment to some high leadership position in our government; that guy has courage and brains and the right moral compass to lead more than a company of recon marines! As somebone who completely mistunderstood the military before this show, I wish more of use had the values, discipline and guts these men do.
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Posts:
1
Registered:
10/30/09
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(28 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Oct 30, 2009 4:39 PM
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I've heard a lot of people that know the guy, and served with him say he is actually a very well squared away Marine. People in that unit say the stuff in the book and in the series didn't actually happen that way. That it's either been taken completely out of context, or just made up all together. You're just getting one side of things here. It is a very entertaining side...but who knows which is actually true?
The stress level we're under adds to our quickness to judge. One bad moment can color your view of somebody permanently, whether or not it's even true. I served with men I despised at one point, and later learned to admire and respect. We just rubbed each other wrong at the time, and I judged them incorrectly. I am certain many people felt the same about me. In reality, we are all pretty damn good at our jobs...and deserved each other?s respect. We were just too young, and too Alpha male to realize it.
Someone I trust completely, and admire as one of the toughest and smartest operators I have ever met knows "Captain America" personally. He worked with Captain David "Captain America" McGraw on several occasions and said he was one of the most squared away marines he's ever known. This guy is not easily impressed. He?s currently part of the State Departments Diplomatic Security Tactical Response Team. These guys are sharp. So if he says the David McGraw is a good officer and a good Marine, I tend to believe him?much more so than I would ever believe a reporter. I doubt this guy would sing such high praises of me, and I know I?m a bad mother ?
So that said, I would advise you take what you see in the series with a large grain of salt.
Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of officers that have no place leading men in combat. I served with more than my fair share of lousy officers and NCOs. I'm just not sure that is/was true of David McGraw. Too many people I would trust my life with say otherwise.
Even with the character assassination of Captain David McGraw, I did enjoy the series. The "hurry up and wait", the constant jockeying for dominance, the constant teasing and joke telling, all very realistic and true to all the services, not just the Marines. There were some great lines that are sure to be classics. So I do advise watching it. I just recommend that you keep in mind; it's a Dramatization and not a Documentary. It?s just one point of view. It doesn?t make it 100% true.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(27 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 22, 2008 8:52 AM
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Well it looks like Sgt Kocher agrees with my thoughts on Captain America. Saw this on another forum:
"EK: He was a solid guy. Really sharp, respected by his platoon. The problem is some people just aren't cut out for combat. Somehow he found himself in combat in a leadership position. He made a lot of mistakes but the problem is, he continued that trend of mistakes. "Nobody relieved him. Everybody knew about it. The problem is it is a grey area ... did he really cross the line? There were 20 other things he did that were definitely questionable. He progressively got worse. It was subtle. Every firefight he was in, his paranoia snowballed. And then he got to the point where he started acting out. His security blanket was pulling the trigger. I think he's working with the DIA [Defense Intelligence Agency] now. In the military, you get blacklisted. He got back from his deployment, and he was kind of pushed to Florida."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/25/generation-kill-our-inter_n_114533.html
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Posts:
24
Registered:
7/21/08
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(26 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 21, 2008 1:12 PM
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How do you know he isn't good in combat until he is thrown in it? Trial by fire is the way of the Marines. Lots and lots or training but in my opinion it is not solidified and perfected until its "go time"
I think CA's character is a Buffoon but as BTDT said he probably be a great asset for supply or maintenance. Some people just slip through the cracks until they have to prove. The Marine corps is about action and everything else is just crap.
I had an officer (shortly before resigning hi comiss) Nearly kill us directing our amtrack into the impact area of a live shoot. This sort of thing happens and you don't always get an obvious like the episode we had.
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Posts:
27
Registered:
8/10/08
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(25 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 3:59 PM
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You are right on all your points. Except, I am looking at it thorugh my civ eyes and yes suffering when the ultimate pain is wonded, captured or killed, anything short of that is manageable. But, why should it, isn't he dangerous?
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(24 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 3:41 PM
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> Well, I guess I have been shocked and bothered that
> the Marines allows guys like him to lead people in
> the field and that good people under him suffered
> because of his stunts. Plus, his crazyness is "ugly
> American" type of stuff the way he pushes around Iraq
> civilians.
This is a way of dealing with military leaders since the beginning of time. If they can't hack it in a line position in combat you move them to staff or to a remf pogue position like supply.
And thats what the Marines did. They moved him.
Now CA may have been a fine or average officer up to this point. He may just not be suited to combat.
Now you can be as shocked as you want but this is an area where first hand experience helps.
Not everyone does well in combat.
Not one of his Marines was KIA. None were MIA. Very few were WIA.
I unlike you am not so sure how much they suffered under him. Some of us have worked in units that suffered over 40% in casualities. Some here maybe more than that.
Having a goofy Lt that does not get you killed is something that you can deal with.
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Posts:
27
Registered:
8/10/08
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(23 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 3:25 PM
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Well, I guess I have been shocked and bothered that the Marines allows guys like him to lead people in the field and that good people under him suffered because of his stunts. Plus, his crazyness is "ugly American" type of stuff the way he pushes around Iraq civilians.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(22 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 3:04 PM
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"Agreed. But, it sounds like Captain America was promoted to some higher position."
He was given a remf staff position. He was not promoted to major.
Some of you sound like him being drawn and quartered would not be enough for you.
--
Edited by BTDTGuy at 08/20/2008 12:04 PM PDT
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Posts:
27
Registered:
8/10/08
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(21 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 2:58 PM
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Agreed. But, it sounds like Captain America was promoted to some higher position. I am not saying kick him out, just don't put them in charge of people or reward him with promotions to higher leadership positions. The problem is if good officers leave and bad ones stay and advance to higher leadership roles.
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Posts:
10
Registered:
7/28/08
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(20 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 1:55 PM
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> ....Cripe I bet Capt America could make a cracker jack
> supply officer.
>
> Not everyone needs to be thrown out in disgrace as
> some of you seem to want.
>
> Not everyone is cut out for a leadership position in
> combat within the combat arms or recon. So they find
> something else for them.
Very good points and, in the book, Wright puts some emphasis on the fact that a lot of the senior officers (such as Ferrando/Godfather) don't typically go into the field with the Recon teams.
Side Note: This was Ferrando's first combat deployment. Before he was made commander of First Recon, he was the parade commander at the Marine Corps HQ in Washington.
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Posts:
109
Registered:
7/12/08
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(19 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 10:06 AM
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"That's too bad! Rewarding incompetence and cowardness! "
The military is an organization like any other large organization. Sometimes managers don't work out. Sometimes they are good managers that just don't work out in a particular situation. So they get moved.
You want everyone who hits a rough patch or finds they can't handle one situation to be thrown out into the street in disgrace?
Yes it appears to all that Captain America and Encino Man are not cut out to be combat leaders at this particualr time. Maybe ever.
But don't tell me that Encino Man could not go back to what he was trained for, Intel, and do a fine job looking at data or photos, or writing reports in some remf environment.
Cripe I bet Capt America could make a cracker jack supply officer.
Not everyone needs to be thrown out in disgrace as some of you seem to want.
Not everyone is cut out for a leadership position in combat within the combat arms or recon. So they find something else for them.
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Posts:
27
Registered:
8/10/08
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(18 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 20, 2008 8:57 AM
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That's too bad! Rewarding incompetence and cowardness! I wonder how many good officers leave the Marines on account of this phenomena. Bad for us that bad leaders are not only left behind, but promoted. My wish is that leaders like Nate Fick find other ways to serve the greater good. He is just soo good! We need more brains and guts like that, now more than ever!
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Posts:
10
Registered:
7/28/08
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(17 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 19, 2008 9:11 PM
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> When I saw the first episodes and how Captain America
> was portrayed, I guessed that Evan Wright had created
> a composite character in Captain America as a way to
> depict the stupid mistakes he saw through his period
> with the First Recon I just bought the book and I
> must say, I am still in shock to learn that Captain
> America is a real person!!
>
> How come the Marines allow this type of marine to
> advance to leadership positions because I am with Ray
> Person, "can't believe" such a stupid, stupid man, "
> is in charge of people".
>
Not only that, he was "reassigned to a prestigious staff position in another unit".
I'm like you, I couldn't stand it anymore and got the book to compare it to the mini-series. Ripped through it in two days and it is the best thing I've read all year (so far).
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Posts:
167
Registered:
11/19/05
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(16 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 19, 2008 8:31 PM
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Yes it is a fact Hussein had no WMD. Yes it is a fact that he gassed the Kurds with American helicopters and the US government did nothing except sell him more weapons. Yes it is a fact that people intimately connected to this adminstration have made fortunes on this useless invasion of a nation Colin Powell said in 2001 "could not project power beyond it's borders". Yes it is a fact that Rumsfeld and Cheney were planning an invasion of Iraq from the first day of this very weak and ignorant president's administration, long before 9-11. Yes it is a fact that this administration has been trying to get Iraq to turn over it's oil fields to foreign corporate ownership for the last 5 years.
And belief that this had nothing to do with US national security is a conspiracy theory?
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Posts:
38
Registered:
7/28/08
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(15 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 19, 2008 8:04 PM
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Even though there were no WMD's (he had about 10 days to move them if he had them) when we invaded, Saddam did use gas on the Kurds. Albiet it was a long time ago but he was still a bad man. We should have gone all the way in during desert storm, but alas it was bad timing. Regardles, we are doing good things over there. And from what you saw about why we should invade, I must ask if you are wearing a tin foil hat? Because conspiracies are a dime a dozen nowadays.
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Posts:
167
Registered:
11/19/05
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(14 of 28)
Re: Captain America and Evan's book
Aug 19, 2008 4:51 PM
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>>>>It's very rational. If you read it as being over the top and irrelevant than congrats, that's how I read your post. About beating up old ladies and training to bomb innocent civilains. War is hell. Simple. This is one of the many reasons why it is hell. We aren't trained to kill civilians and shit though, it's a by product of wars though. Always have, and sadly, always will be.
Sure, war is hell. That's why war is a last resort.
But invasions that are not a last resort in which good men risk their lives so others can profit and win elections are something worse than hell.
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