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Watched Rome for the first time on dvd and still in shock! What historical/logical reasons could the writers have to depict the Cleopatra as they did.
The most famous woman of her time gets pregnant from an unknown Roman soldier, even though we know Egyptian royalties were so conservative as to marry within family. Not only she keeps her first born (next pharaoh), she fooled Caesar and fought all her life for his birth right as next Caesar. After the defeat, she lets the next pharaoh go safely to Rome with another Roman soldier. Out of all possible places, the best place would be Rome for a child who responds in Egyptian to the address of "his majesty". If Cleopatra was really so stupid, how could she hold the interest of Caesar and Antony for such a long time.
On the contrary, I think Cleopatra was extremely astute woman. She used marriage as an alliance to ward off Roman invasion as long as possible, even though Roman needed the grain and wealth of Egypt. Even persuaded Antony to fight his own people.
So what motivation did the writers have to depict Cleopatra as they did? Even comic books have more logic than this story!
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Jul 11, 2009 9:58 PM
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> > Lots and lots of luck!!! And I am certainly
> here if
> > you want any help with Greek or Latin
>
> Hmm... my humble apologies, I thought you meant it.
> Please know I am very grateful for all the
> e information you have given, but I'll refrain from
> further questions.
Elare,
The reason that these boards are here is to exchange information. However, since I do not have access to your text and a lot of such issues (Latin or Greek) are influenced by the contextual information, I think that it would be a good think for you to subscribe to your effort a Greek or Latin scholar. He may provide to you information that a typical editor may not be able to address. But I can certainly deal with a number of your queries.
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Jul 11, 2009 6:24 PM
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> Lots and lots of luck!!! And I am certainly here if
> you want any help with Greek or Latin
Hmm... my humble apologies, I thought you meant it. Please know I am very grateful for all the information you have given, but I'll refrain from further questions.
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Jul 9, 2009 6:34 PM
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> Ah, the dreaded choice of masculine and feminine
> nominatives... Say he was speaking in general of all
> children; would you use the masculine? If it helps,
> he is speaking to a girl, also suggesting a Latin
> term Romans used for daughters, but using
> philostorgos he means all Greek parents and children
> in general. That's really my only question here,
> thanks!
Elare,
There is a substantial difference between somebody addressing the children or a girl. If one addresses the chlidren (which are neutral in Greek), then one address them as "philostorga" (nominative, plural, neutral). If one addresses a girl, one addresses her as "philostorge" (nominative, singular, feminine). In none of these cases would a masculine nominative appropriate. Although I could help occassionally, you should get a good primer in ancient Greek or get access to a professor of ancient Greek in a nearby university.
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Jul 9, 2009 2:06 PM
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> You should not confuse relatively similar sounding
> terms. For example, Aristaeus is not similar to
> Aristophanes or Aristotle (Aristoteles). For the
> latter two, the main theme is "aristos" (the best).
> Not so for Aristaeus, I believe, although I am
> m certainly not a grammarian. In any case, you
> stated that you selected it because Aristaeus was
> also the son of Apollo. By the way, the Greek
> rendition of Aristaeus would be "Aristaios" and as a
> name was more common in Attica than anywhere else.
> Wouldn't it have been a bit over the top for a
> a priest of Apollo to have the name of the god's son?
> Anyway, why did he have this name? Just luck or did
> d his parents dedicate him to the worship of Apollo.
> Wouldn't a name like Apollodoros be more suited
> d (Gifts of Apollo) or Apollonius (both very popular
> names)?
Aretzios, you are such a font of knowledge, which is why it is so. enjoyable exchanging posts with you. That was silly of me to forget 'aristos' meant the best, all in all I think a nice start for a name. I suppose I might have named him one of the two Apollo names you suggested, but I didn't for two reasons; sounded too similar to the god's name I also frequently use, and the well known slave of Cleopatra named Apollodorus. Thank you for the Greek spelling, but as they are in Italia I think it has more continuity to spell it the Latin way. About being 'over the top'; the agent I am submitting to once wrote an essay (many actually) for Writer's Digest Magazine on writing fiction. "Make It Big, Big, Very Big" was the title, a play on something his little girl had said. But the lesson was, to capture a reader's attention, don't be afraid to make things grand, and larger than life, over the top. And as to his parents naming him? He was actually born on Delos like the god, so it was in a way to honor him, naming him after his son. By the way, I like that bit you offered about his parents "dedicating him to the worship of Apollo". Wasn't aware parents did that sort of thing, but it would suit him perfectly.
> Well, providing Roman names for these rooms does not
> allow the reader to "visualize" them as different.
> You may want to provide some information on the room
> m as somebody enters it but calling it triclinium (it
> means a place with three couches) does not provide
> much of an enligthenment, not to me anyway. One
> does not have to go over the top with minute
> descriptions but if you want to give some idea to the
> modern person of the Roman dwellings, just providing
> Latin names would not do.
I didn't explain myself very well here, did I. I see your point, of course using the word alone would not help anyone 'visualize'. Don't worry, if there is one thing I'm not short on, it is description! But I do try to make it in context with the scene. For example, an opening scene with the paterfamilias greeting his clients on the Kalends, is the perfect opportunity to introduce the atrium and what it was meant for, also the 'tablinum', the reception chamber allowing privacy from other clients. (A quick example of how I will explain what the Latin term is in the same sentence. It flows when reading in context.)
> One
> > of my reference books used the word
> > 'philostorgos'..... saying it referred to the
> love a
> > parent had for a child. It is an older term,
> are you
> > familiar with it?
>
> Yes, you have the correct translation for the term
> and yes, I have heard it. Now, you should know that
> what you have is the masculine nominative. The
> feminine nominative would be "philostorge~" (ancient
> Greek pronunciation - e~ denotes a long e sound).
Ah, the dreaded choice of masculine and feminine nominatives... Say he was speaking in general of all children; would you use the masculine? If it helps, he is speaking to a girl, also suggesting a Latin term Romans used for daughters, but using philostorgos he means all Greek parents and children in general. That's really my only question here, thanks!
--
Edited by Elare at 07/09/2009 11:07 AM PDT
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Jul 8, 2009 9:08 PM
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> > First of all, Aries and Ares are two different
> > things.
>
> Curious... why do so many names start with the prefix
> Aris? (Aristaeus, Aristophanes, Aristotle) Does it
> have a particular meaning? And don't say god of
> war... Too me, they sound like names of more
> sophistication, would you agree?
You should not confuse relatively similar sounding terms. For example, Aristaeus is not similar to Aristophanes or Aristotle (Aristoteles). For the latter two, the main theme is "aristos" (the best). Not so for Aristaeus, I believe, although I am certainly not a grammarian. In any case, you stated that you selected it because Aristaeus was also the son of Apollo. By the way, the Greek rendition of Aristaeus would be "Aristaios" and as a name was more common in Attica than anywhere else. Wouldn't it have been a bit over the top for a priest of Apollo to have the name of the god's son? Anyway, why did he have this name? Just luck or did his parents dedicate him to the worship of Apollo. Wouldn't a name like Apollodoros be more suited (Gifts of Apollo) or Apollonius (both very popular names)?
> Second, I would never use a term such as
> > triclinium (which is actually a Greek term) if I
> was
> > going to try to explain it. I am not sure what
> this
> > would get you. Just say that the "main
> character
> > moved to the dining area" and your reader would
> not
> > have to worry about triclinium or other strange
> > words.
>
> You surprise me here, for one who is so bent on
> accuracy. The Roman home features heavily on the
> settings for my story, and I want the reader to have
> an accurate impression of how different it was to our
> modern dwellings. I don't think it will be a killjoy
> to anyone's pleasure to learn a few simple terms like
> atrium, triclinium or peristyle. And for me, using
> 'foyer, dining room and back garden' would be too
> o simplistic and modern. If you read it, I think you
> would approve of how I blend it.
> Triclinium may be Greek, but that is also what the
> Romans called them (or triclinia for plural).
Well, providing Roman names for these rooms does not allow the reader to "visualize" them as different. You may want to provide some information on the room as somebody enters it but calling it triclinium (it means a place with three couches) does not provide much of an enligthenment, not to me anyway. One does not have to go over the top with minute descriptions but if you want to give some idea to the modern person of the Roman dwellings, just providing Latin names would not do.
> > Lots and lots of luck!!! And I am certainly
> here if
> > you want any help with Greek or Latin
>
> Thanks, Aretzios, that means a lot. Writing is a
> rather lonely endeavor, and I've been at this novel
> for more years than I care to admit, although I hear
> the same from other writers I admire composing
> complicated tomes. Since you offered, may I run a
> Greek term by you? I could not find it in a modern
> greek dictionary, wondering if I should use it. One
> of my reference books used the word
> 'philostorgos'..... saying it referred to the love a
> parent had for a child. It is an older term, are you
> familiar with it?
Yes, you have the correct translation for the term and yes, I have heard it. Now, you should know that what you have is the masculine nominative. The feminine nominative would be "philostorge~" (ancient Greek pronunciation - e~ denotes a long e sound).
--
Edited by aretzios at 07/08/2009 6:10 PM PDT
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Jul 8, 2009 3:38 PM
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> First of all, Aries and Ares are two different
> things.
Curious... why do so many names start with the prefix Aris? (Aristaeus, Aristophanes, Aristotle) Does it have a particular meaning? And don't say god of war... Too me, they sound like names of more sophistication, would you agree?
Second, I would never use a term such as
> triclinium (which is actually a Greek term) if I was
> going to try to explain it. I am not sure what this
> would get you. Just say that the "main character
> moved to the dining area" and your reader would not
> have to worry about triclinium or other strange
> words.
You surprise me here, for one who is so bent on accuracy. The Roman home features heavily on the settings for my story, and I want the reader to have an accurate impression of how different it was to our modern dwellings. I don't think it will be a killjoy to anyone's pleasure to learn a few simple terms like atrium, triclinium or peristyle. And for me, using 'foyer, dining room and back garden' would be too simplistic and modern. If you read it, I think you would approve of how I blend it.
Triclinium may be Greek, but that is also what the Romans called them (or triclinia for plural).
> Lots and lots of luck!!! And I am certainly here if
> you want any help with Greek or Latin
Thanks, Aretzios, that means a lot. Writing is a rather lonely endeavor, and I've been at this novel for more years than I care to admit, although I hear the same from other writers I admire composing complicated tomes. Since you offered, may I run a Greek term by you? I could not find it in a modern greek dictionary, wondering if I should use it. One of my reference books used the word 'philostorgos'..... saying it referred to the love a parent had for a child. It is an older term, are you familiar with it?
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Jul 7, 2009 6:40 PM
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> > Greek God of War was "Are~s" in classical times
>
> Ah, just after I posted my last, I was thinking,
> "Wasn't Aries the Greek God of War?" You probably
> won't like my thinking on this, but I believe a
> modern reader will differentiate with an extra 'e'.
> They are little apt to be thinking of
> f pronounciation, unless the name is so difficult
> they wonder how. For example, in Colleen
> McCullough's 'First Man in Rome' she was so wrapped
> up in making everything historically correct, there
> is a glossary of nearly 180 pages, including a
> pronounciation key. This is great if you are
> attempting to educate yourself in ancient Roman
> culture, but for me, much more novice at the time, a
> huge turn-off. Every time I was getting into the
> story, I had to interrupt to look something up at the
> back, then find my place again..... so distracting!
> So I vowed not to do this. I'll use a Latin term,
> , like triclinium, but explain it is a dining room in
> the same or next sentence, which is actually more
> difficult to pull off.
First of all, Aries and Ares are two different things. Second, I would never use a term such as triclinium (which is actually a Greek term) if I was going to try to explain it. I am not sure what this would get you. Just say that the "main character moved to the dining area" and your reader would not have to worry about triclinium or other strange words.
> With no offense please, because I don't like the name
> Kimon and don't find it very sexy. Aris, or
> Aristaeus, I do... But thank you for the
> suggestion.
There is a great wealth of Greek names and you make up yourself without any particular problems. If you like Aristaeus, fine, I really have no problem with it.
> As a writer... you can't please everyone, but I'm
> certainly trying! I'll be submitting my query for
> the full manuscript in a few weeks, definitely this
> month, so wish me luck and I'll keep you posted. I
> appreciate your help, and interest.
Lots and lots of luck!!! And I am certainly here if you want any help with Greek or Latin
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Jul 6, 2009 2:28 PM
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> Italians do not understand Napolitans, so, I would
> not use them as a measure of what to do. Now, if you
> were in Florence and they could not understand you,
> I'd worry.
Yes, I know. Most of my friends are from around Florence, Milan or Rome, they say the same. (And understand me, even compliment my 'dialetto'.)
> >: Well, to be exact, the pronunciation of the
> Greek God of War was "Are~s" in classical times
Ah, just after I posted my last, I was thinking, "Wasn't Aries the Greek God of War?" You probably won't like my thinking on this, but I believe a modern reader will differentiate with an extra 'e'. They are little apt to be thinking of pronounciation, unless the name is so difficult they wonder how. For example, in Colleen McCullough's 'First Man in Rome' she was so wrapped up in making everything historically correct, there is a glossary of nearly 180 pages, including a pronounciation key. This is great if you are attempting to educate yourself in ancient Roman culture, but for me, much more novice at the time, a huge turn-off. Every time I was getting into the story, I had to interrupt to look something up at the back, then find my place again..... so distracting! So I vowed not to do this. I'll use a Latin term, like triclinium, but explain it is a dining room in the same or next sentence, which is actually more difficult to pull off.
> it was transitioning to a simpler pronunciation at
> the time of your novel. In any case, Greek and
> Romans did not use shortened versions of their names,
> not at least at those times. An Aristeus called
> "Aris" for short in the 1st century AD would be
> terribly unhistorical. Why don't you try for a
> simpler name like Kimon?
With no offense please, because I don't like the name Kimon and don't find it very sexy. Aris, or Aristaeus, I do... But thank you for the suggestion.
> Come on, some exceedingly reknown historical novels
> contain rather long names. If the plot is absorbing,
> names hardly count.
They do when you have a lot of them. Case in point; when I was at the Dead Sea, a few people asked to read what I had so far. One was a Canadian engineer, an Austrian physicist, and one a lady from London in the clothing trade. All were rather educated people, and EVERY ONE complained about the names, and keeping track, I only got one negative feedback and it was the same from each one. I'm like you, I can normally keep straight multiple characters. But many can't.
> Pliny is the modern version, he was not called that
> at that time. Neither was Mark Antony was called
> Antony (Marcus Antonius). All of these are modern
> Anglosaxon versions of Latin names.
Hmm, I totally see what you mean here with that comparison. But -- as there are no voice recordings of ancient times, I am absolutely not convinced that in conversation or speech, a person would not shorten someone's name. Naturally you as a scholar would never find out about it, as in writing it would be recorded properly. It just seems human nature, it is today, so I believe in some cases it is natural it could have been then. My first name is only four letters long... yet some shorten it to three!
I have no
> problem with Aristeus at all and I think that your
> readers would not have one either.
I'm afraid I'm so used to it, at this point it stays. If an editor makes me, of course I'll have to. I have a few occasions where I don't use traditional praenomen too, with mixed blood characters.
> I would certainly try to get a very comprehensive
> idea of the monuments and sculptures along the Sacred
> Way leading to the Temple of Apollo since this was a
> key place in antiquity. There is a lot of information
> on this to be able to reconstruct it as well as the
> Roman Forum.
I don't know if it is my computer, but I had a lot of trouble after downloading that cooliris program (didn't even see the photos) and may uninstall it. When it was open, I could NOT open any other window on the internet, and after closing it, it takes about 10 times as long, it definitely affected something.
About the Via Sacra, oh dear... I'm afraid you won't like this either. Yes, I do have access to very good books that describe the multitude of monuments. But there are TOO many. At first I thought I'd concentrate on the ones that feature the nymber 7, a theme in my work. But when I found I had to cut 40,000 words? It had to go. Delphi only makes 2 small appearances in backstory chapters, therefore I confined detail to the Temple itself and rites of the supplicant and Pythia. After all, it is a story about Pompeii, and I have to constantly remind myself about what I call the "kitchen sink" principle; don't throw in details just cause they are marvelous, if they do not A) advance the plot or B) build character.
I do use extensive accurate historical detail in two other places where scenes occur. Puteoli, Campania's main port. Amedeo Maiuri gave such wonderful details I couldn't resist. And I chose a large excavated villa in Stabia to be the home of Pomponianus, where Pliny spends the night before dying on the beach.
As a writer... you can't please everyone, but I'm certainly trying! I'll be submitting my query for the full manuscript in a few weeks, definitely this month, so wish me luck and I'll keep you posted. I appreciate your help, and interest.
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Jul 6, 2009 1:39 PM
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Beagle, Aretzios, I think we are all pretty square about the naming. I did know that J's were pronounced like 'I'. It does sound a bit weird when you hear Latin spoken as it was, for example:
"Weni, Widi, Wiki" does not sound nearly as venerable as: "Veni, Vidi, Vici", at least in my opinion!
I'm still somewhat confused about cognomens, second cognomens and agnomens (I remember that site having something on agnomens, I'll have to go back and read it) and some didn't have a cognomen at all!
At the end of the day, look at our names and the difficulty Beagle was mentioning delving into his genealogy. I know exactly what you mean, having taken great interest in the subject a few years ago. My father died young, and his father died young, and the only thing I knew was that the family came from Virginia. I ended up tracing back to 1608 in Jamestown, and a gent in England did a proper published history in 1901 that goes back to the 1100's. The most prevalent names are William and John. In this country, there were so many William's we began to refer to them by what war they served in; William Rev. War, William War of 1812, and so on. I'd love to do my Mother's Croatian side, but I've heard there is a paucity of some records there since the war.
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Jul 6, 2009 1:41 AM
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;
> That may be true, but try pronoucing something wrong
> to most Neapolitans and they laugh, unlike the rest
> of Italians whom I find much more tolerant. Ironic,
> as their speech is so different from classical
> Italian, dropping final vowels, etc... For example,
> I was pronouncing 'Capua' correct with intonation on
> the first syllable (like Capri), but using more of a
> 'u' instead of 'Cap-oo-ah'. It took three people to
> understand me, which was ridiculous.. .
Italians do not understand Napolitans, so, I would not use them as a measure of what to do. Now, if you were in Florence and they could not understand you, I'd worry.
> You're really busting my balloon here, Aretzios!!!
> Aris is the Greek Mars??? Although I have
> ve encountered in history, many examples of slave
> being named after gods, such as Marc Antony's slave
> Eros. I'll have to think about this.
>: Well, to be exact, the pronunciation of the Greek God of War was "Are~s" in classical times but it was transitioning to a simpler pronunciation at the time of your novel. In any case, Greek and Romans did not use shortened versions of their names, not at least at those times. An Aristeus called "Aris" for short in the 1st century AD would be terribly unhistorical. Why don't you try for a simpler name like Kimon?
> ancient historically accurate, but I was advised by
> someone in publishing to make the names as reader
> friendly as possible.
Come on, some exceedingly reknown historical novels contain rather long names. If the plot is absorbing, names hardly count.
>: I purposely didn't pick longer
> or harder to pronounce names for that reason. I
> suppose I could change all references to Aristaeus...
> it still seems like it could have been a shortened
> nickname, like Pliny from Plinius, but I see what you
> mean being the god of war... And surely you know
> Aristaeus was the name of a son of Apollo, which is
> why I chose it in the first place. He was gifted
> with prophecy too.
Pliny is the modern version, he was not called that at that time. Neither was Mark Antony was called Antony (Marcus Antonius). All of these are modern Anglosaxon versions of Latin names. I have no problem with Aristeus at all and I think that your readers would not have one either.
> Fantastic! Should help me in writing my final Delphi
> scene.
I would certainly try to get a very comprehensive idea of the monuments and sculptures along the Sacred Way leading to the Temple of Apollo since this was a key place in antiquity. There is a lot of information on this to be able to reconstruct it as well as the Roman Forum.
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Jul 5, 2009 11:58 PM
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> Elare wrote:
> >... "I always understood his praenomen to be
> 'Gaius', which you are correct in Latin is designated
> by a 'C'. (That has always confused me, as Caesar too
> begins with a C, along with many other names. And C
> names are designated with a K, when they hardly used
> K...) Strangely, there were only around 18 praenomina
> commonly used in most Roman families for male
> children. They are:
>
> >Appius, Aulus, Caeso, Decimus, Gaius, Gnaeus,
> Lucius, Manius, Marcus, Numerius, Publius, Quintus,
> Servius, Sextus, Spurius, Tiberius, Titus, and
> Vibius."
>
> As I understand it, "C" was pronounced hard
> (as we would pronounce "K". today). Phonetically, we
> would hear his name approximately as "Kaius Julius
> Kaiser". Cicero would've been "Kikero",
> and so on. Pronunciation details, I'll leave to
> aretzios.
Yes and No. The full name of Julius Caesar would have sounded as : Gaius ^Iulius Ke~sar.
> > ... "Cognomens, sometimes (excuse the pun)
> confound me. Some are inherited, some not, and I
> think if not of great significance, like Africanus or
> Caesar, not the first choice in reference or
> conversation.".
Africanus is an agnomen, not a cognomen. It could not have been inherited. Caesar was a cognomen and denoted a specific branch of the Julians which was rather common in large branched out families. In this case, many got a 2nd cognomen.
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Jul 5, 2009 7:47 PM
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Elare wrote:
>... "I always understood his praenomen to be 'Gaius', which you are correct in Latin is designated by a 'C'. (That has always confused me, as Caesar too begins with a C, along with many other names. And C names are designated with a K, when they hardly used K...) Strangely, there were only around 18 praenomina commonly used in most Roman families for male children. They are:
>Appius, Aulus, Caeso, Decimus, Gaius, Gnaeus, Lucius, Manius, Marcus, Numerius, Publius, Quintus, Servius, Sextus, Spurius, Tiberius, Titus, and Vibius."
As I understand it, "C" was pronounced hard (as we would pronounce "K". today). Phonetically, we would hear his name approximately as "Kaius Julius Kaiser". Cicero would've been "Kikero", and so on. Pronunciation details, I'll leave to aretzios.
The paucity of available praenomina was common to many languages - maybe still is. My German forebears had so many Johanns, Friedrichs and Jakobs in the tree that tracing genealogy is a real challenge. For example, my great grandfather was named Johann Jakob Beagle along with several other close relatives in his own times (1815, et seq.).
> ... "Correct, all females named the feminine version of their father's nomen. (How boring...)" ...
I have nothing against boredom. I somewhat enjoy it; although I'm not easily bored.
> ... "Cognomens, sometimes (excuse the pun) confound me. Some are inherited, some not, and I think if not of great significance, like Africanus or Caesar, not the first choice in reference or conversation.".
"Cogito, ergo sum", someone famous once said. I can't think who.
I've always thought that the "cog" prefix implied individuality, particularity, singularity or something equivalent. A sort of "call name", if you will.
I am, Beagle CMXIV: the author of this post; opinions expressed are always my own.
--
Edited by Beagle914 at 07/05/2009 5:06 PM PDT
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Jul 5, 2009 3:22 PM
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> aretzios and Elare,
Hi Beagle, I'm sure Aretzios has his own knowledgable opinion to share, but I'll offer mine as well. You might find this website helpful.
Choosing a Roman Name
> Perhaps you could clarify a few points for me
> regarding "naming" conventions in the ancient
> Greco-Roman world.
>
> Taking Romans for exemplars and referring
> specifically to Caesar, I'd always
> understood the subject along the following lines:
>
> Praenomen = Caius = A formal "first" name
> bestowed at birth by the parents/authorities and
> subject to tradition.
True, however I always understood his praenomen to be 'Gaius', which you are correct in Latin is designated by a 'C'. (That has always confused me, as Caesar too begins with a C, along with many other names. And C names are designated with a K, when they hardly used K...) Strangely, there were only around 18 praenomina commonly used in most Roman families for male children. They are:
Appius, Aulus, Caeso, Decimus, Gaius, Gnaeus, Lucius, Manius, Marcus, Numerius, Publius, Quintus, Servius, Sextus, Spurius, Tiberius, Titus, and Vibius.
>
> Nomen = Julius = A "family" name, inherited by
> lineage and not ordinarily subject to change.
Correct, all females named the feminine version of their father's nomen. (How boring...)
>
> Cognomen = Caesar = An informal name (or
> nickname) but the usual designator for a particular
> individual.
>
> Thus, "Caius Julius", called Caesar.
>
> Am I wrong?
Cognomens, sometimes (excuse the pun) confound me. Some are inherited, some not, and I think if not of great significance, like Africanus or Caesar, not the first choice in reference or conversation.
Weigh in, Aretzios?
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Edited by Elare at 07/05/2009 12:25 PM PDT
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298
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1/12/08
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(53 of 66)
Jul 5, 2009 1:54 PM
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> Is it because of the alphabet? I cannot discern
> differences, but this is just me.
Yes, same goes with Hebrew, I can speak somewhat but I learned by ear and tapes so I cannot read the characters. (And the right to left doesn't help...)
> I am rather good on Latin and I can tell you that
> modern Italians may be placing the emphasis quite
> differently from ancieht Romans.
That may be true, but try pronoucing something wrong to most Neapolitans and they laugh, unlike the rest of Italians whom I find much more tolerant. Ironic, as their speech is so different from classical Italian, dropping final vowels, etc... For example, I was pronouncing 'Capua' correct with intonation on the first syllable (like Capri), but using more of a 'u' instead of 'Cap-oo-ah'. It took three people to understand me, which was ridiculous.. .
> You cannot use the shortened version "Aris". No
> Greek would have ever used it at that time as Aris is
> the name of the Greek God of war.
You're really busting my balloon here, Aretzios!!! Aris is the Greek Mars??? Although I have encountered in history, many examples of slave being named after gods, such as Marc Antony's slave Eros. I'll have to think about this. It may not be ancient historically accurate, but I was advised by someone in publishing to make the names as reader friendly as possible. I purposely didn't pick longer or harder to pronounce names for that reason. I suppose I could change all references to Aristaeus... it still seems like it could have been a shortened nickname, like Pliny from Plinius, but I see what you mean being the god of war... And surely you know Aristaeus was the name of a son of Apollo, which is why I chose it in the first place. He was gifted with prophecy too.
> Absolutely. The Romans themselves used the prenomen
> extensively.
Well thank heavens for that!
> Despite being a peripheral painter in the 19th
> century, I enjoy his works immensely. They do not
> have the stiffness of French academic painting and
> seem a lot more intimate.
Very...
> However, you would find a series of reconstructions
> of ancient sites by a French group of academics very
> nice. I was once in an exhibition that displayed
> their work. Here is a sample, a reconstruction of
> ancient Delphi.
> http://www.cooliris.com/tab/#url=jsfeed%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2
> Fimages.google.com%2Fimages%3F%26tab%3Dwi%26hl%3Den%26
> sa%3DN%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26um%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox%2Da%
> 26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%253Aen%2DUS%253Aofficial%26oe%3Dut
> f%2D8%26q%3DDelphi%2520reconstruction%26start%3D0%26gb
> v%3D2&guid=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shunya.net%2FPictures%2FGr
> eece%2FDelphi%2FDelphi%2Dreconstructed.jpg
>
> --
> Edited by aretzios at 07/05/2009 12:32 AM PDT
Fantastic! Should help me in writing my final Delphi scene.
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Edited by Elare at 07/05/2009 11:21 AM PDT
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Posts:
1,583
Registered:
10/30/05
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(52 of 66)
Jul 5, 2009 11:55 AM
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aretzios and Elare,
Perhaps you could clarify a few points for me regarding "naming" conventions in the ancient Greco-Roman world.
Taking Romans for exemplars and referring specifically to Caesar, I'd always understood the subject along the following lines:
Praenomen = Caius = A formal "first" name bestowed at birth by the parents/authorities and subject to tradition.
Nomen = Julius = A "family" name, inherited by lineage and not ordinarily subject to change.
Cognomen = Caesar = An informal name (or nickname) but the usual designator for a particular individual.
Thus, "Caius Julius", called Caesar.
Am I wrong?
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I am, Beagle CMXIV: always the author of this post; opinions expressed are my own.
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