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Adorned with the rams which were captured during the victory at Antium in 338 BC, the original Rostra or Rostra Vetera, to distinguish it from lesser platforms with similar names, was set in front of The Roman senate where orators would give political speeches.
To have physical possession of the Rostra at a time of political upheaval meant the difference between being heard by the people and being listened to. For the Rostra was held in such a high and elevated state of honor, that those speaking from it felt no higher privilege.
Discuss current politics and the parallels between today and Ancient Rome!
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(8 of 8)
Aug 18, 2009 6:38 PM
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> aretzios wrote:
> Although I agree with most points that
> aretzios makes, I think that it's wildly
> improbable that any but a tiny few modern students
> anywhere would ever delve deeply into ancient Latin
> and Greek. Damned few even learn their mother tongue
> very thoroughly.
I do not disagree with this assessment but again, I want to stress that this is just a "cultural" phenomenon. Societies until WWII placed great emphasis on learning the classics. They do not now. This is not because of any definitive study that showed the futility of studying the classics. In fact, it occured because of the expansion of mass education. When secondary education was expanded to most of the population post-WWII, it was simply impossible to provide resources for the learning of Greek and Latin and to study the classics in detail. In fact, it is still tough to provide well trained teaching staff for the basics.
Having said this, proficiency in ancient/medieval Greek and Latin is really quite important in learning one's language well. English contains a huge proportion of Greek and Latin words. In fact, they are so pervasive that do not even ring a bell any more. How many know that "salt" and "bath" are Greek words transferred to Latin and then on to English? Does it matter? It sure does in many disciplines such as biology and medicine where the vast amount of specialized terminology is either Greek or Latin.
> I think it's very important for a student to become
> competent in a modern language other than their
> mother tongue. I attained a passable grasp of German
> and French in later life but - lacking a situation in
> which I would find conversant companions - most of it
> has slipped away. I wish now that I'd studied
> another language in my earlier years. Alas.
Well, it is never too late, Beagle. But there is something to reading Thucydides in the original that cannot be reproduced in the English translation. He wrote in an inflected version of Attic that was highly economical in the use of words. Many later historians tried to imitate his style with poor results. This synthetic approach to language is totally different from today's linguistic evolution and forces the student to evaluate the effect and "economy" of a sentence. It is rather like writing very compact code.
> But, on the other hand, I wish I'd learned to play
> the banjo too!
Do not regret anything...you always did what you enjoyed the most!
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(7 of 8)
Aug 18, 2009 5:56 PM
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aretzios wrote:
> ..."These are just my few comments on the poor state of classical education in the western world (not just the US),"...
I'm not sure how a "classical education" should be defined. Here's a link that describes how I might use the term, Classical Education.
Note that this usage is not equivalent to being educated in the ancient classics (meaning Roman and Greek languages and the writings therein). It does require a disciplined logical progression (K through 12) through the educational process and makes no provisions for being schooled in social behavioral matters such as how to avoid drugs, behave in public, social graces and similar topics. The latter should be ingrained by parents and their like.
Although I agree with most points that aretzios makes, I think that it's wildly improbable that any but a tiny few modern students anywhere would ever delve deeply into ancient Latin and Greek. Damned few even learn their mother tongue very thoroughly.
I think it's very important for a student to become competent in a modern language other than their mother tongue. I attained a passable grasp of German and French in later life but - lacking a situation in which I would find conversant companions - most of it has slipped away. I wish now that I'd studied another language in my earlier years. Alas.
But, on the other hand, I wish I'd learned to play the banjo too!
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(6 of 8)
Aug 17, 2009 11:54 PM
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> > I don't expect much....but I like what you
> wrote.
>
> Good effort anyway. I found out to my surprise that
> most people who posted in this board were more
> comfortable with the fictional characters and the
> actors than with the real persons. Considering how
> deficient historical education is in the US, this is
> only to be expected. And there is a lot to be said
> about a classical education. I had to read
> "Commentarii De Bello Civilo" and "De Bello Gallico"
> in Latin in school. My Latin is not nearly as good
> as my ancient Greek, but I enjoyed the experience (at
> least in retrospect). This is unlikely to happen
> today in any school. I found my education in ancient
> Greek and Latin invaluable in forming a logical
> process in science. Languages are logical constructs
> and the effort of learning them reinforces one use of
> logic. In addition, the ancient writers were strong
> on logic. It was rather typical to include made-up
> speeches by historical personalities to highlight the
> arguments, something that necessitated a series of
> well-reasoned arguments. There is little in western
> literature to compare to Thucydides' Pericles'
> Funeral Oration. Even today, I still get tears
> reading this piece. And there is a certain magic in
> the logical and summary exposition of the
> commentaries by Caesar. Although one understands that
> he span the truth, there were just too many other
> accounts to allow him to change the facts. But
> reading it is the best way to connect to the man. It
> is logical, it is fast paced, and it is terse, just
> like Caesar. I wonder how many of those who watched
> "Rome" ever took the chance to read the commentaries.
> My guess is very few, if any. In fact, in modern
> n English, it is an exciting read.
>
> These are just my few comments on the poor state of
> classical education in the western world (not just
> the US), On the basis of this, it is not really
> unexpected that modern politics is very much a
> Hollywood affair instead of a reasoned discourse of
> citizens. Having seen that most in this board were
> preoccupied with the breasts of some actresses and
> buttocks of some of the male leads, only verified
> previous observations.
>
> --
> Edited by aretzios at 08/12/2009 11:12 PM PDT
Classic education is not all its cracked up to be. Many pederasts have pointed to the writings of the classics, such as Plato and Socrates for their support of sexual intercourse with children.
Classic education, didn't help Oscar wild stay out of prison after forming a society of "Greeks" at Oxford.
The truth is, in many ways, classic eduction has been thrown out as being worth less than a modern interpretation of certain writings, but always with an ear to the distorted facts and duel mythology and history that steps over each other like the three stooges in a black and white film.
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(5 of 8)
Aug 13, 2009 2:06 AM
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> I don't expect much....but I like what you wrote.
Good effort anyway. I found out to my surprise that most people who posted in this board were more comfortable with the fictional characters and the actors than with the real persons. Considering how deficient historical education is in the US, this is only to be expected. And there is a lot to be said about a classical education. I had to read "Commentarii De Bello Civilo" and "De Bello Gallico" in Latin in school. My Latin is not nearly as good as my ancient Greek, but I enjoyed the experience (at least in retrospect). This is unlikely to happen today in any school. I found my education in ancient Greek and Latin invaluable in forming a logical process in science. Languages are logical constructs and the effort of learning them reinforces one use of logic. In addition, the ancient writers were strong on logic. It was rather typical to include made-up speeches by historical personalities to highlight the arguments, something that necessitated a series of well-reasoned arguments. There is little in western literature to compare to Thucydides' Pericles' Funeral Oration. Even today, I still get tears reading this piece. And there is a certain magic in the logical and summary exposition of the commentaries by Caesar. Although one understands that he span the truth, there were just too many other accounts to allow him to change the facts. But reading it is the best way to connect to the man. It is logical, it is fast paced, and it is terse, just like Caesar. I wonder how many of those who watched "Rome" ever took the chance to read the commentaries. My guess is very few, if any. In fact, in modern English, it is an exciting read.
These are just my few comments on the poor state of classical education in the western world (not just the US), On the basis of this, it is not really unexpected that modern politics is very much a Hollywood affair instead of a reasoned discourse of citizens. Having seen that most in this board were preoccupied with the breasts of some actresses and buttocks of some of the male leads, only verified previous observations.
--
Edited by aretzios at 08/12/2009 11:12 PM PDT
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Posts:
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12/22/06
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(4 of 8)
Aug 11, 2009 8:21 AM
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I don't expect much....but I like what you wrote.
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Posts:
1,555
Registered:
10/18/05
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(3 of 8)
Aug 7, 2009 11:08 PM
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> Adorned with the rams which were captured during the
> victory at Antium in 338 BC, the original Rostra or
> Rostra Vetera, to distinguish it from lesser
> platforms with similar names, was set in front of The
> Roman senate where orators would give political
> speeches.
>
> To have physical possession of the Rostra at a time
> of political upheaval meant the difference between
> being heard by the people and being listened to. For
> the Rostra was held in such a high and elevated state
> of honor, that those speaking from it felt no higher
> privilege.
>
> Discuss current politics and the parallels between
> today and Ancient Rome!
Mark,
Do you really expect any replies in this forum? Traffic has been minimal and most of what it is here has to do with the actors rather than the historical setting. And most, with few exceptions, have a very faint idea of the politics of antiquity.
In any case, politics in Rome were in some ways similar to those of today and in others, very different. The similarity goes to political groupings: although these were not as formalized as those of today, the groups in ancient Rome fell into two groups: the optimates and the populares. The Populares, of which Julius Caesar was a notable member, advocated specific policies which continued with a certain intensity between the death of Tiberius Gracchus and the death of Marius. Sulla managed to put the genie back in the bottle but the Optimates dealth themselves a mortal blow by being intrasigent to request by Pompey that set the stage for the fateful events of Caesar's consulship. This whole series of events is quite reminiscent of modern politics. Political pressures radicalize a section of the population, attempts to reform the system come to naught, suppression follows and revolution erupts. It is really a classic pattern and societies would continue to to repeat it for a long time.
Now, there are elemental dissimilarities, at least in the surface. Roman voting was not similar to today's and it was very susceptible to bribing. Then, you have the clientele system, with many following their patrons rather than their class. On the plus side, politics, at least in Rome, were far more direct. As most citizens would visit the forum very regularly, they were able to get in touch directly with all the political discussions. Although there was no press as we know it, leading politicians had many ways of reaching most of the populace very directly and very quickly. There were agents that disseminated "news" and organized voters and many of their techniques are quite reminiscent of those of today. There is little doubt that competing political agendas could result in temporary confusion - such as after the death of Julius Caesar- but usually clarity returned quite quickly. And as today, money had an immense influence. Romans of the 1st century BCE were intensely political, the atmosphere was very charged and it resembled the politics in Europe of the 20's and 30's.
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Aug 7, 2009 7:53 PM
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Today we see mobs are being whipped up by the political speeches of political commentators. The same had occurred in the city of Roman and a moratorium against permanent theatres was begun and the Comitium amphitheatre was dismantled and buried leaving only the Rostra, the Vulcanal and the Graecostasis.
Mobs regularly endangered ancient society and even the Egyptians feared the mob for thier regular rampages through Alexandria.
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Posts:
2,952
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(1 of 8)
Aug 7, 2009 7:49 PM
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Adorned with the rams which were captured during the victory at Antium in 338 BC, the original Rostra or Rostra Vetera, to distinguish it from lesser platforms with similar names, was set in front of The Roman senate where orators would give political speeches.
To have physical possession of the Rostra at a time of political upheaval meant the difference between being heard by the people and being listened to. For the Rostra was held in such a high and elevated state of honor, that those speaking from it felt no higher privilege.
Discuss current politics and the parallels between today and Ancient Rome!
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