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This topic has been archived and locked - replies are not allowed.
I am probably asking this too late for an answer, but as I am questioning things last minute before submitting tomorrow morning, perhaps there is still time for a question?
I know (male) teachers were called grammaticus (singular) in Latin. Were they called the same thing in Greece? I can't seem to find an answer, feeling you probably know on top of your head without checking. I think so, but would love confirmation.
Thanks!
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(10 of 10)
Jul 25, 2009 7:28 PM
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> Well, I have to read it, of course, to fully
> understand what is going on. But it seems to be that
> sequestered persons in a cult are prime material to
> go crazy with ladies of certain reputation!! And
> temptations would have been abundant in Delphi.
Trust me, once you start writing, it is easy to envision all kinds of sex scenes and situations, what with the availibility of prostitution and dearth of Judeo/Christian modern morality. But, for the book to have substance, it can't be all 'fun and games'... Some have suggested I should have put sex scenes earlier, but to do so before establishing plot, or developing character would have felt gratuitous.
> Yes, I think that the description of Delphi by
> Pausanias is really extensive. I think that he is
> the main reason that we know all that we do about the
> place.
Well, someday it would be interesting to devote an entire novel to Delphi, and give it justice. (I wonder if any of Mary Renault's novel's did just that?) However, I've met my deadline (yeah!) and finished. Naturally a few things might be added here or there, but as stated before, this was a backstory chapter of a character's past and it was essential to keep it short, confining it to his personal life, so as not to impede the forward momentum of the story I am actually telling. Trust me, there is heartache at all I'd like to have put in and didn't, but I did manage to work in some Pythagoras' and detail of the Pythian games, and a frolic at the Dionysian rituals the 3 months Apollo's temple was closed.
Historically, the period covered by your
> novel has only one major convulsion in the politics
> of the Roman Empire and that was the overthrow of
> Nero and the year of the four emperors (69 CE).
> There are certain excellent books that go into great
> t detail on the events of that year and the main
> characters that were present on the scene.
In fact, one recent book was called just that; "Year of the Four Emperors". I discovered all this when I did my initial research. When the paterfamilias character is young and enters the Legion as an Eques Nero is still Emperor. It was rather convenient to be able to have him in a cavalry unit captained by Pliny the Elder, with Vespasian as their eventual General. Though I don't dwell on it, as it is his backstory, next came Galba, not very well liked by his soldiers who threw him into the Tiber, Otho, former husband of the beauty Poppaea Sabina (when Nero took a fancy to her, he made her husband governor of Lusitania with her left behind, have you ever seen her glorious villa in Oplontiae? Best fresos in the Roman world), then Vitellius who was known for his gluttony.
I find the next years more refreshingly stable, than boring, Vespasian was very 'earthy' when compared to his former counterparts, it was fun using actual historical information on him, although the book opens at his death.
The rest
> of the period with the rule of Vespasian, Titus and
> Domitian was exceedingly calm unless of course one
> was of a senatorial rank or lived in the Danubian
> provinces. Despite the negative press for Domitian,
> he was capable but very anti-senate, but the ordinary
> people would not have noticed.
Now, he did generate some negative press, and where there is smoke, there is usually fire, nay? I'd be lying if at the end here I haven't been envisioning a sequel, and the more I do, the more things suggest themselves of interest. First, would be the opening of the Colosseum, a massive event. Then, Titus' mysterious death after only 2 yrs... At the same time, Pliny the Younger (a character appearing at the end) actually becomes involved in adjudicating inheritance cases in 81AD. This is too good to be true! As my story ends, with the question of a particular inheritance with vast implications. And then we have Domitian... Among all his other anti-Christian sentiments, he was also the only Emperor to bury a Vestal Virgin alive for trangression of her vows in something like 370 years! And I think I have just the character as the culprit...
Well, I just hope I can reach the right agent who realizes the potential. You might wish to check your private messages for something additional.
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(9 of 10)
Jul 25, 2009 1:42 PM
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> Does
> > the bride need to be a virgin??? It seems to me
> that
> > an hosios (a holy man) would have been quite
> > attracted to the very nice prostitutes that
> were
> > inhabiting the periphery of Delphi. This should
> give
> > the novel the added punch!!
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by bride, he doesn't marry
> here. But don't worry, he does have his moments of
> attraction with the hetairai. All in all, 2 of the 5
> characters have oretty sexy scenes, but they are
> balanced out by 3 more sedate characters.
Well, I have to read it, of course, to fully understand what is going on. But it seems to be that sequestered persons in a cult are prime material to go crazy with ladies of certain reputation!! And temptations would have been abundant in Delphi.
> > read the description of Delphi by Pausanias. I
> think
> > that you should be able to find a good
> translation of
> > his "Description of Greece". It would help
> with
> > your novel.
>
> Will do, thanks.
Yes, I think that the description of Delphi by Pausanias is really extensive. I think that he is the main reason that we know all that we do about the place. Historically, the period covered by your novel has only one major convulsion in the politics of the Roman Empire and that was the overthrow of Nero and the year of the four emperors (69 CE). There are certain excellent books that go into great detail on the events of that year and the main characters that were present on the scene. The rest of the period with the rule of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian was exceedingly calm unless of course one was of a senatorial rank or lived in the Danubian provinces. Despite the negative press for Domitian, he was capable but very anti-senate, but the ordinary people would not have noticed.
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Posts:
298
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1/12/08
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(8 of 10)
Jul 24, 2009 2:01 PM
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> Since nobody posts in these boards, this would not
> have been a problem. But thank you anyway!
> Wow, it sounds like a Victorian romantic novel!
Oh, it has far too much lusty sex to be a Victorian romantic novel.
Does
> the bride need to be a virgin??? It seems to me that
> an hosios (a holy man) would have been quite
> attracted to the very nice prostitutes that were
> inhabiting the periphery of Delphi. This should give
> the novel the added punch!!
I'm not sure what you mean by bride, he doesn't marry here. But don't worry, he does have his moments of attraction with the hetairai. All in all, 2 of the 5 characters have oretty sexy scenes, but they are balanced out by 3 more sedate characters.
> read the description of Delphi by Pausanias. I think
> that you should be able to find a good translation of
> his "Description of Greece". It would help with
> your novel.
Will do, thanks.
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Posts:
298
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1/12/08
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(7 of 10)
Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM
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> Elare, let me ask to clarify a few things first: Are
> you talking about the Olympic games?
My bad, I've been up all night. I meant to type Olympic games, not Olympus, I know the difference.
> Women were not allowed (at the pain of death) to
> attend the games. Period. Any mention of virgins
> (by Pausanias) probably refers to priesthood of
> Demeter Chamyne nearby which was established in Elis
> and part of the observance of religious festivals
> during the games.
As you suggest, I'll have to check out Pausanias. I'd spent more time with Plutarch, since he was about 150AD.
> > singing, dancing and acting, and painting. I
> doubt
> > seriously these activities were performed in
> the
> > nude.
> Probably not, but I have no clue,
Tough one, isn't it?
to be honest, if
> women were allowed to participate in these
> competitions as spectators. They may have been.
> Let's not forget that the perimeter around the games
> s would have been populated by countless
> prostitutes.
Well, the women I had in mind, were a mother, a lover, and a Pythia
> For your period, Pausanias would provide the best
> information. Have you read Pausanias's description
> of Delphi (which is one of the most detailed)?
Not yet, but I will.
> Listen, I think that having women observing the
> e chariot races and cultural competitions is just
> fine. I think that most readers would not know the
> difference.
This is what I have done, but I try to get it right, whether readers catch me on it or not. I even arranged a change in birthdate, to be sure my years coincided with the games being held every 4 yrs. I know most won't know. I, will.
My guess is that the crowd was so male
> (travellers from all over) that the locals probably
> stayed away.
Even Mom's and girlfriends? Nah, I don't believe that, even if they were sequestered (given we are talking of the art competitions or chariot races).
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Jul 24, 2009 12:39 PM
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>
> Wow! How quick, thanks! These boards have been dead
> as a doornail, at any rate, I thought it was about
> time you had your own thread. And this way I don't
> have to break topic on someone else's, or whole new
> interesting topics might form.
Since nobody posts in these boards, this would not have been a problem. But thank you anyway!
> Believe it or not, I am still finishing up my chapter
> on Aristaeus at the eleventh hour! I've always
> worked well last minute under pressure, and poorly
> when the 'muse' Polymnia is not at my side. I'd
> avoided a gladiator fight scene for years, and had a
> burst of inspiration this week, finishing it to
> promising reviews in only three hours.
>
> I do have 19 pages of outlined notes forming the
> chapter, covering his birth on Delos, childhood in
> Delphi, competition in the Pythian games, and
> subsequent entrance as a hosios. Along the way he
> also has to lose his virginity and fall in love with
> a virgin who dies tragically, he suffering the blame.
Wow, it sounds like a Victorian romantic novel! Does the bride need to be a virgin??? It seems to me that an hosios (a holy man) would have been quite attracted to the very nice prostitutes that were inhabiting the periphery of Delphi. This should give the novel the added punch!!
> So I cannot get too detailed, losing sight this is a
> a backstory chapter intent to show history and
> development of character. Too bad I don't have a
> Greek buff like you to run it past... I'll just have
> to hope for the best, that the agent requests the
> manuscript tomorrow morning as I hope (if not on
> vacation).
Usually, professors of ancient Greek in nearby universities would be glad to assist for just a mention. I hope that you meet your deadline. In any case, you may always buzz me here for additional information.
A serious proposal anyway, even after you submit: read the description of Delphi by Pausanias. I think that you should be able to find a good translation of his "Description of Greece". It would help with your novel.
> He'll either accept it or not, that is when I assumed
> the time would come for most likely the editor or
> publisher to request or insist on a classicist to
> read and check for errors. If there are some, most
> likely they might be on the Greek and not Roman
> subject material. I had an Italian editor proficient
> in Latin scrutinize most of it along the way.
>
> Man, this submitting is nerve-wracking!
The best of luck!!!
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Edited by aretzios at 07/24/2009 9:40 AM PDT
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(5 of 10)
Jul 24, 2009 12:31 PM
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> Ok, I promise, I spent nearly an HOUR trying to
> research the answer to this in texts and on the
> internet, and I give up. I know that in ancient
> times (but not exactly the years) only women who were
> virgins were allowed to observe the games at Olympus,
> due in part to the competitors nudity.
Elare, let me ask to clarify a few things first: Are you talking about the Olympic games? These were held at Olympia which is not at Olympus but in Elis, in mid-western Peloponnese (a cattle-raising country). They were Olympic games because they were in honor of Olympian Zeus. In the 5th century BCE, the Macedonians instituted games that were held at Olympus, in the town of Dion but they never got to be as popular as the Olympic games in the Peloponnese.
Women were not allowed (at the pain of death) to attend the games. Period. Any mention of virgins (by Pausanias) probably refers to priesthood of Demeter Chamyne nearby which was established in Elis and part of the observance of religious festivals during the games.
> What about the Pythian games? Would it be safest to
> assume the same? Women were largely sequestered,
> specifically I had his mother observing but then
> remembered the dilemma...
> (Given I am speaking of 67and 71AD)
Well, do not forget hat lots of information that we have about both Olympia and other Greek games and major sites comes from Pausanias who wrote in the 2nd century CE, after the period of your novel. Thus, prohibition of women attending was likely enforced during this period.
On the other hand, there was an athletic competition for girls held in Olympia in honor of Hera. Like the Olympics, it was held every four years.
> For example, first came the One Hymn to Apollo, then
> there were competitions for music, with and without
> singing, dancing and acting, and painting. I doubt
> seriously these activities were performed in the
> nude.
Probably not, but I have no clue, to be honest, if women were allowed to participate in these competitions as spectators. They may have been. Let's not forget that the perimeter around the games would have been populated by countless prostitutes.
>And if not, they also seem suitable for a
> co-gender crowd. I'm inclined to assume only the
> next pentathlon events were forbidden to married
> women, but I give up when it comes to the chariot
> racing, anyone's guess. The famous charioteer statue
> definitely has clothes on, so again I might think all
> women were welcome, as even in Rome's Circus Maximus,
> it was one of the few places women actually sat with
> the men, as opposed to at the theatre or
> amphitheatre. It is rather complex, and most sources
> say most details of the Pythian games were destroyed
> when the game were outlawed with Christianity. Then
> again, some sources, like Pindar, area over half a
> century earlier.....
For your period, Pausanias would provide the best information. Have you read Pausanias's description of Delphi (which is one of the most detailed)? Listen, I think that having women observing the chariot races and cultural competitions is just fine. I think that most readers would not know the difference. My guess is that the crowd was so male (travellers from all over) that the locals probably stayed away.
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298
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1/12/08
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(4 of 10)
Jul 24, 2009 2:26 AM
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Ok, I promise, I spent nearly an HOUR trying to research the answer to this in texts and on the internet, and I give up. I know that in ancient times (but not exactly the years) only women who were virgins were allowed to observe the games at Olympus, due in part to the competitors nudity.
What about the Pythian games? Would it be safest to assume the same? Women were largely sequestered, specifically I had his mother observing but then remembered the dilemma...
(Given I am speaking of 67and 71AD)
For example, first came the One Hymn to Apollo, then there were competitions for music, with and without singing, dancing and acting, and painting. I doubt seriously these activities were performed in the nude. And if not, they also seem suitable for a co-gender crowd. I'm inclined to assume only the next pentathlon events were forbidden to married women, but I give up when it comes to the chariot racing, anyone's guess. The famous charioteer statue definitely has clothes on, so again I might think all women were welcome, as even in Rome's Circus Maximus, it was one of the few places women actually sat with the men, as opposed to at the theatre or amphitheatre. It is rather complex, and most sources say most details of the Pythian games were destroyed when the game were outlawed with Christianity. Then again, some sources, like Pindar, area over half a century earlier.....
--
Edited by Elare at 07/23/2009 11:27 PM PDT
--
Edited by Elare at 07/23/2009 11:38 PM PDT
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298
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Jul 23, 2009 11:32 PM
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> Grammaticus is just the latinized version of the
> greek "grammaticos". "Gramma" means letter in Greek
> (a single letter that is".
Wow! How quick, thanks! These boards have been dead as a doornail, at any rate, I thought it was about time you had your own thread. And this way I don't have to break topic on someone else's, or whole new interesting topics might form.
Believe it or not, I am still finishing up my chapter on Aristaeus at the eleventh hour! I've always worked well last minute under pressure, and poorly when the 'muse' Polymnia is not at my side. I'd avoided a gladiator fight scene for years, and had a burst of inspiration this week, finishing it to promising reviews in only three hours.
I do have 19 pages of outlined notes forming the chapter, covering his birth on Delos, childhood in Delphi, competition in the Pythian games, and subsequent entrance as a hosios. Along the way he also has to lose his virginity and fall in love with a virgin who dies tragically, he suffering the blame. So I cannot get too detailed, losing sight this is a backstory chapter intent to show history and development of character. Too bad I don't have a Greek buff like you to run it past... I'll just have to hope for the best, that the agent requests the manuscript tomorrow morning as I hope (if not on vacation).
He'll either accept it or not, that is when I assumed the time would come for most likely the editor or publisher to request or insist on a classicist to read and check for errors. If there are some, most likely they might be on the Greek and not Roman subject material. I had an Italian editor proficient in Latin scrutinize most of it along the way.
Man, this submitting is nerve-wracking!
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Posts:
1,555
Registered:
10/18/05
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(2 of 10)
Jul 23, 2009 10:07 PM
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> I am probably asking this too late for an answer, but
> as I am questioning things last minute before
> submitting tomorrow morning, perhaps there is still
> time for a question?
>
> I know (male) teachers were called grammaticus
> (singular) in Latin. Were they called the same
> me thing in Greece? I can't seem to find an answer,
> feeling you probably know on top of your head without
> checking. I think so, but would love confirmation.
>
> Thanks!
Grammaticus is just the latinized version of the greek "grammaticos". "Gramma" means letter in Greek (a single letter that is".
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Posts:
298
Registered:
1/12/08
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(1 of 10)
Jul 23, 2009 8:58 PM
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I am probably asking this too late for an answer, but as I am questioning things last minute before submitting tomorrow morning, perhaps there is still time for a question?
I know (male) teachers were called grammaticus (singular) in Latin. Were they called the same thing in Greece? I can't seem to find an answer, feeling you probably know on top of your head without checking. I think so, but would love confirmation.
Thanks!
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