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Well here we go with a baseball thread for all. I have some opening thoughts, but everyone feel free to chime in. Pitchers and catchers in two days.
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(10519 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 4:22 PM
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> > You can see proof that you have to pay your dues
> in
> > NASCAR before they let you win anything by
> looking at
> > how Toyotas have gotten more "competitive" each
> > succeeding year.
>
> how long did mario andretti pay his dues before he
> won the daytona 500?
>
> btw, he also came in 5th at indy at age 53
Toyota got competitive when they hooked up with Gibbs. I think it was their second year. Michael Waltrip was a disaster.
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Posts:
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(10518 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 3:36 PM
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> You can see proof that you have to pay your dues in
> NASCAR before they let you win anything by looking at
> how Toyotas have gotten more "competitive" each
> succeeding year.
how long did mario andretti pay his dues before he won the daytona 500?
btw, he also came in 5th at indy at age 53.
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Posts:
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(10517 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 3:29 PM
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hey nino, how 'bout this one: you think the galaxy making the championship game and beckham just happening to be on that team is a coincidence?
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Posts:
8,580
Registered:
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(10516 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 11:38 AM
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> you really know the game of baseball that we grew up
> watching is over when no one in the major leagues
> wins 20 games and the NL cy young award winner wins
> 15.
Supposedly, Lincecum scored much higher on the sabremetrics stats than the other guys he was competing against.
I'm not all that big a follower on who wins what (other than to use that in an argument against you) as they have become a popularity contest, but this guy winning was wrong.
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Posts:
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(10515 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 11:35 AM
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> who's a bigger fan favorite than JPM, two or three
> other guys maybe? you should've seen all the latin
> fans down here this week. it was unbelievable. he's
> brought more fans into that sport than any one guy in
> the last 20 years (they said on TV the other day on
> one of the 500 or so JPM features i saw over the last
> week). yet NASCAR seemed to go out of their way to
> keep him from winning. bob griese got a one game
> suspension for using an ethnic slur about montoya.
> others have lost their jobs for less.
JPM has been popular with American Latinos who remain clueless about sports world-wide and it's why he's making more in NASCAR than he was in Formula 1. NASCAR has also allowed him to win the race in Monterey, Mexico to further bring in fans. But NASCAR will not allow JPM to win anything major until he's paid his dues and put in the time. To allow JPM to win anything at this stage of his career would expose NASCAR and its drivers as the second rate talents they are. NASCAR won't let that happen.
In an interview, Michael Schumacher hinted as much by saying that no Formula 1 driver could hope to have any kind of success in NASCAR. When asked if it was because the cars were so different, Schumi just said, "A car is a car. They have different characteristics, but you learn to control them".
You can see proof that you have to pay your dues in NASCAR before they let you win anything by looking at how Toyotas have gotten more "competitive" each succeeding year.
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(10514 of 10519)
Nov 24, 2009 11:24 AM
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> holds onto the wheel as the car goes around in
> circles? i love ya but that sounds pretty ignorant.
> i guess NACSARs as tough as any other sport
> t including MLB, NFL and F1, all of whom had guys
> compete in their 50s. and you keep saying "56", and
> "well into their 50s". that also weakens your point
> since he's 50. and if they're helping him in any
> way, why didn't they throw out a caution when he was
> leading in the last lap of the daytona 500 and
> would've won the cup if they did, as they should have
> when there was a wreck behind him?
What athelete competed in MLB, the NBA, the NFL, or Formula 1 when they were 50? And don't go back to the fifties to point out that some F1 driver was 50, I'm talking about over the last 35 years.
Frankly, I think NASCAR was surprised that Mark Martin has remained competitive all year. You can bet that had they known he would be this close, they WOULD'VE thrown that caution.
I'm sorry, but I don't think NASCAR racing is all that tough. Most of the drivers in the series lack any real skill and many of them are just of average fitness. And let's not forget that there are many drivers in NASCAR that are much older than guys participating in other sports. The only aspect of NASCAR that is trying is the length of the races and the weekly schedule of races.
>
> all sports do things to help their stars. TV rules
> the game and they don't pay the big bucks to see guys
> like shaquille o'neal and machael jordan foul out,
> which is why you never saw shaquile o'neal and
> michael jordan foul out. EVERY TIME o'neal posts
> someone up and backs them into the basket he commits
> an offensive foul. he regularly (in his prime)
> commited 15 fouls per game yet never fouled out.
> interesting, huh?
Not interesting as it is this particular aspect that has contributed to me not watching the NBA anymore.
I understand that people come to watch stars, but it should never be at the expense of the actual competition.
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(10513 of 10519)
Nov 23, 2009 10:13 AM
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you really know the game of baseball that we grew up watching is over when no one in the major leagues wins 20 games and the NL cy young award winner wins 15.
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Posts:
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(10512 of 10519)
Nov 23, 2009 10:10 AM
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who's a bigger fan favorite than JPM, two or three other guys maybe? you should've seen all the latin fans down here this week. it was unbelievable. he's brought more fans into that sport than any one guy in the last 20 years (they said on TV the other day on one of the 500 or so JPM features i saw over the last week). yet NASCAR seemed to go out of their way to keep him from winning. bob griese got a one game suspension for using an ethnic slur about montoya. others have lost their jobs for less.
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Posts:
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(10511 of 10519)
Nov 23, 2009 10:04 AM
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holds onto the wheel as the car goes around in circles? i love ya but that sounds pretty ignorant. i guess NACSARs as tough as any other sport including MLB, NFL and F1, all of whom had guys compete in their 50s. and you keep saying "56", and "well into their 50s". that also weakens your point since he's 50. and if they're helping him in any way, why didn't they throw out a caution when he was leading in the last lap of the daytona 500 and would've won the cup if they did, as they should have when there was a wreck behind him?
all sports do things to help their stars. TV rules the game and they don't pay the big bucks to see guys like shaquille o'neal and machael jordan foul out, which is why you never saw shaquile o'neal and michael jordan foul out. EVERY TIME o'neal posts someone up and backs them into the basket he commits an offensive foul. he regularly (in his prime) commited 15 fouls per game yet never fouled out. interesting, huh?
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(10510 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 11:01 PM
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> how's that working out with dale jr.? last week he
> caused an 11 car wreck and came in 34th. this week
> he's starting in the 30s again. reminds me of kyle
> petty.
It's not working out with Dale Jr., but as long as Dale keeps winning those fan polls on who's the most popular driver, then NASCAR will make every effort to make sure he is with the best team, in the best cars, and with the best crew chief along with giving him every edge to win races and possibly the championship.
NASCAR will not piss their fans off.
> martin is 50. he's come in 2nd a few times, 3rd a few
> times and 4th a few times and he gat cheated out of
> one championship. it's like saying ted williams and
> dan marino are no good since they never won it all.
Ted Williams and Dan Marino weren't playing well into their 50s. How tough can NASCAR be if a 50 year old can "compete"?
Mark Martin was a good driver in that he can hold a steering wheel firm while the car goes around in circles. And while he's had some road racing success, he's a far cry from the real road racing talents in NASCAR like Jeff Gordon, JP Montoya, and Tony Stewart not to mention the road racing ringers they normally bring in like Boris Said, Marcos Ambrose, and Ron Fellows.
Martin is popular with the fans right now, so as is NASCAR's way, they're allowing him to win races and be competitive. They did it for Richard Petty in the twilight of his career and they have done it for other popular drivers.
> i agree. don't like the chase format.
At least we agree.
But it is important to note that the Chase format is another way of NASCAR manipulating the results and allowing fan favorites a better shot at winning.
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Posts:
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(10509 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 10:46 PM
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> i just think you sell him short. i don't think he's
> mario andretti.
I really think you overrate him.
He just isn't all that good.
I think it's telling that he has never gotten an offer from ANY team to be the number 1 guy.
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Posts:
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(10508 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 10:43 PM
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> elton john is gay too. so is barney frank.
You know, I was surprised when I found out Elton John is gay. Barney Frank? Who cares.
> everyone in formula 1 is successful in the minor
> formulas. if you suck down there, you don't get to
> F1. btw, ralph schumacher's gay too.
That's not true, there have been a ton of drivers in Formula 1 that had bad results in the minor formulae. Money is a big part of drivers being able to drive in Formula 1.
Massa's career in the minor formulas wasn't all that great and definetely much worse than Button's career in the minor formulas. Until Massa went to Ferrari, he was pretty much out of Formula 1. Ferrari's number two drivers are hired for their ability to back-up the number one guy. You'll remember that Eddie Irvine chafed during his time at Ferrari being forced to subjugate himself to Michael Schumacher. Barichello and Massa seem content to take a back seat.
> i think it could be interesting. he says his neck is
> all better. he would just be keeing the seat warm
> until vettel can get there is what i read. they want
> all germans.
Vettel is who they want, but he has two years more on his contract. "Quick" Nick Heidfeld would get the seat for the next two years if Schumi doesn't comeback.
I don't think Schumi coming back is a slam dunk, either.
--
Edited by nino at 11/22/2009 7:44 PM PST
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Posts:
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(10507 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 3:47 PM
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> Nope, in fact, Mark Martin's run only reinforces what
> I've always believed; that NASCAR makes every effort
> to favor their most popular drivers.
how's that working out with dale jr.? last week he caused an 11 car wreck and came in 34th. this week he's starting in the 30s again. reminds me of kyle petty.
> Only in NASCAR can a 56 year old guy run for a
> championship. It doesn't happen anywhere else except
> in professional wrestling.
martin is 50. he's come in 2nd a few times, 3rd a few times and 4th a few times and he gat cheated out of one championship. it's like saying ted williams and dan marino are no good since they never won it all.
> Let me ask you something, you don't feel that this
> "Chase" bullshit is all contrived? In what other
> sport are the guys that don't make the "playoffs"
> allowed to play with those who do?
i agree. don't like the chase format.
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Posts:
11,091
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(10506 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 3:43 PM
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> > > Let's see if Massa gets to win a race next
> > year.
> >
> > so, you're saying it's like NASCAR. you know,
> all
> > predetermined and shit.
>
> It's not predetermined as Alonso still has to beat
> all the other teams. But let's face it, the team that
> is most notorious for giving team orders over the
> years has been Ferrari. With all that money on the
> line, Ferrari will never risk pissing off a major
> sponsor. Despite your admiration of Massa, the fact
> is that he isn't considered even by his own team as a
> capable and worthy driver and that forces them to go
> out and get drivers like Raikonnen and Alonso (they
> were also interested in Hamilton, BTW).
>
> If he were as good as you feel he is, would Ferrari
> i allow themselves to be put in this sort of
> position?
i just think you sell him short. i don't think he's mario andretti.
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Posts:
11,091
Registered:
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(10505 of 10519)
Nov 22, 2009 3:41 PM
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> > well, first of all, hamilton's gay.
>
> That's not something I would know.
elton john is gay too. so is barney frank.
> i can tell you with a straight face that
> massa's
> > better than button though, which was my point.
> > button was in the right place at the right
> time.
>
> Then you haven't followed their careers.
> If anything, Massa is the one at the right place at
> the right time. That's how he got the Ferrari drive
> to begin with. (At the time, Sauber was using Ferrari
> engines. When Sauber couldn't pay Ferrari, he offered
> Massa's contract instead)
>
> Button was a huge success in the minor formulas and
> with the exception of his time at Renault, faster
> than his teamates in Formula 1. That has included the
> likes of Ralph Schumacher and Jaques Villenueve.
everyone in formula 1 is successful in the minor formulas. if you suck down there, you don't get to F1. btw, ralph schumacher's gay too.
>
>
> >
> > do you think schumacher's coming back to drive
> for
> > mercedes?
>
>
> That's a tough one.
>
> I can see it happening only because it was Mercedes
> that got Schumacher into racing and got him his first
> Formula 1 seat with Jordan and Schumacher feels an
> obligation to Norbert Haug. The irony has been that
> Schumacher has never driven for Mercedes in Formula
> 1. If he does drive for Mercedes, it will only be one
> year. Schumacher would be risking a long term
> lucrative consulting deal with Ferrari if he decides
> to drive. Of course, that says nothing if he comes
> back and starts sucking.
i think it could be interesting. he says his neck is all better. he would just be keeing the seat warm until vettel can get there is what i read. they want all germans.
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