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Is gina in love with paul?
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(36 of 51)
Jun 22, 2009 1:17 AM
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Well Caseymay, let's go with the notion for a moment that Gina is in love with Paul....this begs a few quick questions. Should Gina have agreed to even treat Paul in therapy? Would it be consistent with what we know of Gina and her ethics to take on a patient that she knew she was in love with?
Gina hadn't heard from Paul in a year. In the first season, she hadn't heard from Paul in nine years. Paul admitted he wasn't good at keeping in touch. She had completed her book and had started seeing patients again when Paul contacted her at the start of season two. What do we make of Paul and Gina's communication pattern of being out of touch for years as any indication that Gina is in love with Paul?
At what point do we think Gina may have fallen in love with Paul?
I know it could have been a function of timing....Gina was married to David, Paul was married to Kate, but with both Paul and Gina being single and available in season two, do we think it happened at some point in season two? Back in season one? In the year between? Prior to season one?
I've watched both seasons ad nauseum....I can't pinpoint a time when I could say that Gina definitively fell in love with Paul, but what say you? Thanks for sharing, Caseymay.
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(35 of 51)
Jun 22, 2009 1:06 AM
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LL , neek, and casemay, good points and questions all around.
I still have to come back with what I think is the most obvious issue here: the whole of season 2 was about Paul fighting the urge -- even the need -- to reciprocate his patients' desire for personal involvement, to provide them the tangible evidence of affection that they craved, whether by taking them to chemotherapy, making them a sandwich and being a surrogate father, or by fulfilling their sexual and life fantasies by marrying them and fathering their children. It was all boundaries, all the time in season 2, especially because Paul had lost or dislocated all the relationships that these new patient relationships emulated. Even Walter -- who fluctuated somewhere between Paul's son, father, friend, and foe -- made for an obvious echo of Paul's father, complete with his thick mop of gray hair and Paul's discomfort at having to be in a hospital to visit him so soon after seeing his own father die in a hospital.
I can't recall the dialog now, but wasn't there an issue in the first Gina episode of season 2 about Paul wanting to see Gina and talk about personal matters in a non-therapeutic setting (i.e., not seeing her as either a supervisor or as his personal therapist but just as a friend)? I recall he arrived late and wanted to go out for coffee or something, and she refused, yet she wound up urging that he enter therapy with her. That suggested to me (and to Paul, I'm sure) that she was not going to make herself available to him in a personal relationship, only in a professional one. He was very reluctant to agree to therapy, and one could certainly argue that he only relented because she would not be available as a real confidante to him in any other capacity.
And as alluded to before, in the last two Gina episodes, Gina was especially attuned to the idea that EVERYTHING Paul was lamenting/discussing with regard to his patients and his relationships with them had a reverse corollary in his feelings and relationship with her. When he spoke of admiring April's decision to leave therapy, despite how it hurt him, Gina almost immediately (and correctly) took this as a signal that Paul was going to end therapy with her. When Paul spoke of Walter's dubious "third act" and feelings of uselessness, Gina rightfully saw through it as evidence of Paul's own feelings of inadequacy and expiration as a vital part of his children's lives. And there was no need for interpretation when Paul equated boundary issues with real caring and noted that that equivalency is why he had boundary problems and she didn't. "You think I don't care about you," she asked incredulously.
He provoked her relentlessly that night because he resented the stoicism and arms-length, emotionally detached perspective she projected. He was gratified when she finally broke her calm (and her precious boundaries) by reaming him a new asshole.
The next week, we learn that he was subtly jealous of David (maybe that jealousy played some role in why he didn't attend David's funeral?) and that he had been in love with Gina as a grad student. Why did Paul take so long to use those particularly charged words to describe his former feelings for her? Why only in the same episode where he's decided to quit therapy? Is it because he understands that Gina will not really be able to give him what he craves without also destroying what she most values? Why only when he was leaving therapy was he suddenly very up front in complimenting her appearance and in his obvious interest in her personal (and especially dating) life? Was it because he reached a watershed the week before? Did he realize that if he pushed and pushed hard enough, he could make Gina cross lines? Did he realize that he was not really there to gain insight into himself but for fulfillment of the same emotional needs that were driving Mia and April to him? Did he finally recognize how his own aggressive efforts to chisel and batter Gina's boundaries were as damaging and difficult for HER to handle as Mia's and April's efforts were for him to handle? Was he able to be more honest about the romantic dimensions of his interest in Gina near the end because he knew she would no longer be threatened by them once he left therapy?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Paul had some burning (byrne-ing?) lust for Gina present day that he was barely containing. Much had happened in those intervening years to both of them and they surely changed as people. But Gina remains a professional authority figure/mentor to him, and a teacher is a very, very common target of romantic crushes and fantasies. I imagine that for a man recovering from a divorce who is desperate for (especially female/sexual) companionship, and who has trouble meeting and connecting with women outside of work, the revival of an old romantic fantasy towards a teacher he once fancied would be very alluring. Wasn't that the point of Tammy Kent, the emotional fallback on a prior romantic attachment (nevermind that the sequel wasn't nearly as nice as the first installment)? And why would this pattern be any less applicable with regard to Paul and Gina?
I dunno. I just think this mirror-image reciprocity of therapist/patient motives and actions is a key to understanding the season, and I see no reason to believe that a generous helping of Mia/Paul wasn't present in the dynamic between Paul/Gina.
And, for the record, I DON'T think Gina had a date. Her concerns before the session were all about him, about why he was late and what it may have meant re the letter. She betrayed a great deal of personal hurt when she realized he was leaving therapy, and that hurt was what motivated the "I'm not gonna say my door is always open". If, in fact, the date was Paul -- their therapy session -- there was nothing technically untruthful in her final, reluctant confirmation that she did have a date. But her lonely, devastated look when she closed the door indicated to me that the date just ended, not that it was about to begin.
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Edited by InspiredByGabriel at 06/21/2009 10:08 PM PDT
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(34 of 51)
Jun 22, 2009 12:17 AM
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LL, I know you don't see it and yes I agree that Gina would masterfully be able to hide her feelings and she did! I think when they talked about her time off and writing the book she said she had enough time alone -- intimating to Paul that she was lonely and perhaps needed him? She said, " I will always see you - Paul. Then the way they sat on that couch and she seemed so serene and happy to be sitting there with him, they had vodka's, and he said she was they only one he trusted -- the look on her face conveyed a sense of suprise and happiness. I am beginning to ramle but on another note, I do agree though that when Gina told Paul to sit down, it seemed like an order from a parent?
In the last episode of Season 2, when she said out time is up, good luck, Pauls kisses her.... I can't figure out what that look on her face is - upset he has left her again? Puzzled in general? Not sure?
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(33 of 51)
Jun 21, 2009 11:44 PM
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Caseymay and Neek, I did see that, too. In fact, for the last four Gina episodes, I thought Paul and Gina might embrace and/or even exchange farewell pecks on the cheek. I suspect now that doing so might have been off limits while Gina was treating Paul, but ohhhhhhhhhhh how I was filled with the anticipation of them hugging.
That having been said, I don't know y'all....I can't go there with you on the notion of Gina wanting Paul sexually nor vice-versa. I am convinced that Gina has the ability to masterfully conceal an attraction to a patient, and if it had been revealed that Gina had erotic feelings for Paul, then I would have been shocked, but not shocked that she was able to hide those feelings so well.
I think what we're witnessing is the interface between two folks who go way back together...some thirty years....they have a teacher/student history, a supervisor/mentee history, a therapist/patient history, and an friendship history which was on a level such that Gina trusted Paul enough to offer him the chance to wait at the house while she went shopping. It was an intimate relationship, yes, but erotically fueled? Naw, I don't see it.
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(32 of 51)
Jun 21, 2009 10:55 PM
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I agree with you... when Gina said, "Umm...Paul quickly replied yes, and the expression on his face looked as if he had a longing or hope that Gina would profess some kind of affirmative remark about the two of them and their relationship. This is a very deep and convoluded relationship that runs the gamut from supervisor to potential love interest.
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(31 of 51)
Jun 21, 2009 9:02 PM
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I still don't know quite what to make of that part where Gina is about to tell him the line, and I am paraphrasing here " This is the time where I usually tell my patients my door is always open..."
But right before she delivers that line, there is a long silence, then she starts it off slowly (head down) by saying "'Ummm...and Paul jumps in with an almost embarrasingly fast, "yes?" and shoots her an expectant look while licking his lips. What was that all about pray tell?
That is the the kind of thing that couples do when a declaration of romantic intent is imminent. In my opinion Pauls "yeah?" seemed highly charged...but as soon as Gina said the rest of the line, he nodded and said, I understand.
Anybody else notice that?
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Edited by iamyuneek at 06/21/2009 8:20 PM PDT
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Jun 21, 2009 7:07 PM
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The primary reason I read more into it than face value was the length of the looks exchanged between the two of them after his remark as well as the way he delivered the line. IIRC, the editing also placed a closeup on one or both of them for emphasis.
I can see how you came to this conclusion, Inspired, because upon first blush, I interpreted that pregnant pause between them as some yet-to-be-revealed unspoken history between Paul and Gina. It was one of those palpable beats that occurs between two people who know it isn't expedient to drill down into some known subject about which they've declared a verbal detente.
Later on, when she told Paul to sit down from the book poking tantrum, he obeyed, so it stood to reason that Gina wouldn't have had that kind of more maternal authority had she ever been his lover or she had ever revealed an erotic attraction to him. Men just aren't wired that way.
Paul's season finale revelation of his grad school crush seemed more a function of his trust in her, and perhaps a declaration on Paul's part that he was no longer dependent on Gina...that the parameters of the relationship were being redefined by him....that he felt confident that the two of them had reached an important new plateau of mutual respect, but not sexual attraction as it were. Hence his freedom to tell her of his past crush.
I never saw Paul/Gina as erotically charged by one another nor even struggling with that issue. Paul was clearly all over the place emotionally....he didn't have the strength for that....he even said as much. So, Inspired, I still don't know what to make of that preganant pause. Maybe it will be revealed in SEASON THREE!!
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Edited by LadyLeslie at 06/21/2009 4:09 PM PDT
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Jun 21, 2009 2:53 AM
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> The primary reason I read more into it than face
> value was the length of the looks exchanged between
> the two of them after his remark as well as the way
> he delivered the line. IIRC, the editing also placed
> a closeup on one or both of them for emphasis.
Agreed, Inspired. Which led me to wonder too if there were some way Paul might blame Gina for his not having more ex-lovers. None occured to me, nothing materialized. Other than what you capably lay out -- with Gina herself being the potential former lover she's deprived Paul of.
I'm not inclined to hang my hat on how the exchange was played and filmed, without more, or even bolstered by the rest of what you compellingly convey. But I realize we can't rule out your take on this and I appreciate your sharing your thoughtful perspective.
I suppose another possibility is that Paul was ruing what happened with Tammy, including his betraying his promise to Gina, and it's an apology of sorts or acknowledgement of his pathetic situation -- that if he had more former lovers, then he could have picked some other one or two or three . . . without the mess he made with Tammy.
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(28 of 51)
Jun 21, 2009 2:08 AM
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> What Paul said, I believe, is: "Too bad I didn't
> have more of them." -- this after Gina remarked on
> Paul's sleeping with Tammy that she realizes how hard
> it is to resist the pull of a former lover.
>
> I didn't take this to be alluding to Laura or
> to Gina, or to anyone else specifically. I
> see no reason not to take it more or less at face
> value as Paul saying he wishes he had more former
> lovers and so a bigger pool of prospects to turn to
> when he's otherwise facing loneliness, deprivation.
The primary reason I read more into it than face value was the length of the looks exchanged between the two of them after his remark as well as the way he delivered the line. IIRC, the editing also placed a closeup on one or both of them for emphasis. You could be right, though, and it could have meant nothing more than he would have had more options now. Of course, Gina could also have been one of those options if she had been a former lover.
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Edited by InspiredByGabriel at 06/20/2009 11:08 PM PDT
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Jun 20, 2009 11:53 PM
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Thoughtful remarks, Inspired by Gabriel. I'm still inclined to believe that Paul's feelings towards Gina are as he's said to her over the years, to us over the seasons. Including, as you say, how much he admired her, how infatuated he was as her student, along with the other students. And as, yes, running a complicated gamut. I believe Paul has acknowledged as much.
> Gina mentions something about "old lovers" and
> Paul stares at her in a very pregnant way and
> says something like, "maybe I didn't have
> enough [old lovers]". I suspect many would
> interpret that as alluding to Laura, but, in
> retrospect and especially after the Gina finale, I > think it much more likely that he was alluding to > having had a long-standing erotic attraction to > her.
What Paul said, I believe, is: "Too bad I didn't have more of them." -- this after Gina remarked on Paul's sleeping with Tammy that she realizes how hard it is to resist the pull of a former lover.
I didn't take this to be alluding to Laura or to Gina, or to anyone else specifically. I see no reason not to take it more or less at face value as Paul saying he wishes he had more former lovers and so a bigger pool of prospects to turn to when he's otherwise facing loneliness, deprivation.
> Paul was all over the place. He was hot for Laura
> last season. Then he was hurt about Kate cheating on
> him, professing his love for her. Then he starts out
> in season two sniffing after Tammy Kent, snuggling up
> with her, then crashing & burning there. Then he's
> back to telling Kate he loves HER and wants to come
> back home. Then he confesses a schoolboy crush on
> Gina. Finally, he cops to the hopes of a tete-a-tete
> with the dreaded Wendy
All over the place, LL? Yes, he's had feelings for his wife, for Laura. Long ago he had a crush on Gina, with whatever lingering from that, or not. And now, having been divorced for many months, and Kate apparently having moved on, he has hopes finally for another woman. We can all have our takes on Paul and Laura, but beyond that, why . . . .
> (LL is not keen on that
> notion AT all). He's on my last nerve.
?????
> How can somebody that gorgeous, intelligent,
> and well-educated be that inept at getting
> together with somebody already?
To take just part of this equation -- that Paul is so intelligent: how does this make it easier for him to find an appropriate mate/companion/lover? Paul is exceptionally intelligent and articulate, so the pool of women who are somewhat comparably intelligent and articulate is going to be a good deal smaller than if Paul were less exceptional.
And even if Paul felt he could be happy with someone not as execeptional as he is, any woman who recognizes she's not might be intimidated, insecure, making for a rocky relatationship at best, if they even get that far.
> He could scare up on a quick piece at the University
> y if he just hung around the cafeteria....sheesh!
So one place Paul hasn't been "all over" and you blame him that he hasn't been?
>Either he's not letting ANYBODY in
> or he leads a very singular, insular, lonely life
Well, by all accounts including Paul's own, he has been leading a veery singular, insular, lonely life. I don't imagine anyone disputes this, including Paul himself.
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(26 of 51)
Jun 20, 2009 9:27 PM
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I do think he specifically was
> erotically attracted to Gina for much of season 2,
> and there's a moment in one of the episodes where
> Gina mentions something about "old lovers" and Paul
> stares at her in a very pregnant way and says
> something like, "maybe I didn't have enough [old
> lovers]". I suspect many would interpret that as
> alluding to Laura, but, in retrospect and especially
> after the Gina finale, I think it much more likely
> that he was alluding to having had a long-standing
> erotic attraction to her.
That is what I thought.
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Edited by karenweston at 06/20/2009 6:31 PM PDT
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(25 of 51)
Jun 14, 2009 4:13 PM
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Sarah Frances. thank you for your post and I totally agree with you, and it is the most interesting relationship of the entire series.
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(24 of 51)
Jun 12, 2009 5:24 AM
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The post below expresses everything I was feeling about Paul and Gina's relationship this season! This is why their session was always my favorite, because their relationship had so much going on, on so many different levels.
I actually feel that Paul is much more interested in Gina "that way" than Gina is with him. And, I think she did have date that night.
Quoting "Inspired by Gabe"
"Not to be ignored in this very interesting discussion is the degree to which Paul does or would like to project the reciprocal of the feelings flowing between himself and his own patients onto his relationship with Gina as her patient. Recall that in week 6, Paul talks about how incompetent he is to give his patients "what they really need" because what they really need and want is to be loved, to receive affection from him, to be his child, to be physically embraced and comforted by him, or to have sex with him. And he seems to really lament that the boundaries of his profession prohibit him from providing them with those things.
Later he angrily lashes out at Gina, accusing her of not really caring about her patients like he does and equating his own boundary conflicts with the fact that he DOES care. She immediately fixes on the pregnant allegation here, that she doesn't actually care about HIM. The unacknowledged but undeniably consequent allegation he is making is that she doesn't really love or have the desire to comfort and/or have sex with him.
I think it not coincidental that he quits therapy exactly one week after this exchange in a session where he also repeatedly compliments her appearance, inquires about the possibility of her having a date or love interest, and uses the words "in love" to describe the feelings he had for her all those years ago.
It's also possible that, just as Laura used Alex as some kind of surrogate for Paul, Paul was using sex with fellow Gina patient Tammy as some kind of substitute for sex with Gina herself, this despite the significant distinguishing fact that he and Tammy shared a prior relationship. He was hardly shy in letting Gina know about his flouting of her express directive to avoid a sexual relationship with Tammy -- patronizingly calling Gina "mother" in the process -- and even accused Gina of setting the whole thing up to ensure he and Tammy would have sex (i.e., on some level accusing her of using Tammy as her own surrogate for sex with Paul. This scenario also cropped up on the Sopranos in a less obvious way when Melfi asked Tony if he knew why he wound up in an affair with a fellow patient he met in her waiting room and who, Tony noted, bore some superficial similarities to Melfi herself. They met only because Melfi double booked a session, and many real therapists analyzing the show questioned why Melfi would make such an obvious "mistake". Meanwhile, Tony's erotic transference for Melfi arose early in the first season and was latently present throughout the 6 seasons, revisited explicitly on a couple of occasions.)
Paul cited the example of April when he talked about why he was quitting therapy, a relationship with obvious parent/child transference overtones, and Paul did acknowledge that he couldn't keep coming to Gina for the mothering he didn't get.
So, I believe, it's just as valid to ask if Paul is/was "in love" with Gina as to ask the opposite, and I think that his transference issues with her ran the gamut, from mother to lover (and parental transference, especially for the parent of the opposite sex, is pretty standard in most romantic relationships). I do think he specifically was erotically attracted to Gina for much of season 2, and there's a moment in one of the episodes where Gina mentions something about "old lovers" and Paul stares at her in a very pregnant way and says something like, "maybe I didn't have enough [old lovers]". I suspect many would interpret that as alluding to Laura, but, in retrospect and especially after the Gina finale, I think it much more likely that he was alluding to having had a long-standing erotic attraction to her.
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Edited by SarahFrances at 06/12/2009 2:25 AM PDT
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Jun 12, 2009 4:19 AM
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I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but it seems that everyone here just Paul and allow's him the license to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Don't get me wrong GB is god but Paul Weston is very misguided and should probably not be practicing....did he help Alex, Laura, that couple that he hated, etc.? Not so much....
Bubble? What Bubble? lol.
Anyway, nope. I agree Paul is Very troubled. But, I do think that he is an effective therapist. Yes, you can have a screwy personal life and still be good at your job. He listens intently, has empathy and good insights consistently. The rest is up to his patients.
If Paul Weston were to come in a shabbier packaging than that of the god Gabriel, well, we might admittedly, be a little tougher on him, but I hope not. I do think, despite his own depression and despair that he is trying to do right by his clients.
The Gina and Paul thing? No. Great mutual admiration. Blurred boundaries, dual roles, long shared history and intimacy. Resulting in deep admiration, and mutual respect. Maybe love, but Not romantic love.
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Edited by MissPDX at 06/12/2009 1:24 AM PDT
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Jun 12, 2009 12:28 AM
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Hmmmmmmmm, I can't say that I at all detected that Gina was in love with Paul. Gina was hard-to-read though, so it would shock me to find out that she had erotic feelings for Paul, but it wouldn't shock me to find out that she was THAT masterfully great at hiding her attraction.
Paul was all over the place. He was hot for Laura last season. Then he was hurt about Kate cheating on him, professing his love for her. Then he starts out in season two sniffing after Tammy Kent, snuggling up with her, then crashing & burning there. Then he's back to telling Kate he loves HER and wants to come back home. Then he confesses a schoolboy crush on Gina. Finally, he cops to the hopes of a tete-a-tete with the dreaded Wendy (LL is not keen on that notion AT all). He's on my last nerve.
How can somebody that gorgeous, intelligent, and well-educated be that inept at getting together with somebody already? Either he's not letting ANYBODY in or he leads a very singular, insular, lonely life. He could scare up on a quick piece at the University if he just hung around the cafeteria....sheesh!
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