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O.K., it's the dead of winter,everyone is strung out waiting for Albrecht to get a sign from heaven, tempers grow short, and we are all losing our focus. What's needed is a good shot of Wire watching! S1/S2 are now out on dvd, and a lot of you have taped the show so it's possible for us to watch the first 25 episodes together again, and then chat it up here. The idea is simple: Two nights a week on the schedule below, we all watch the episode, starting with S1/E1 and then discuss it that night or the next day. The balance of the week is for ongoing discussion, and will allow those with schedule conflicts to catch up. For those without video, we will post episode summaries ahead of time so you can join in. Granted, the element of speculation about upcoming shows is lost,but even there it might be fun to ponder missed opportunities and alternate plot arcs. This little journey will get us past winter, and into spring, when we all need to shed that 'Television Tan', and get outdoors. So here we go; Stringer, D'Angelo, Wallace and Sobotka are all alive again. Avon is out of jail, and the detail is yet to meet. join us for a Wire marathon! SCHEDULE The First Season Mon. Feb 14 - episode 1 "The Target" Wed. Feb 16 - episode 2 "The Detail" Mon. Feb.21 - episode 3 "The Buys" Wed. Feb.23 - episode 4 "Old Cases" Mon. Feb 28 - episode 5 "The Pager" Wed. Mar. 2 - episode 6 "The Wire" Mon. Mar. 7 - episode 7 "One Arrest" Wed. Mar. 9 - episode 8 "Lessons" Mon. Mar.14 - episode 9 "Game Day" Wed. mar.16 - episode 10 "The Cost" Mon. Mar. 21- episode 11 "The Hunt" Wed. Mar. 23- episode 12 "Cleaning up Mon. mar. 28- episode 13 "Sentencing" The Second Season Wed. Mar. 30 - episode 1 "Ebb Tide" Mon. Apr. 4 - episode 2 " Collateral Damage" Wed. Apr. 6 - episode 3 "Hot Shots" Mon. Apr. 11 - episode 4 "Hard Cases" Wed. Apr. 13 - episode 5 "Undertow" Mon. Apr. 18 - episode 6 "All Prologue" Wed. Apr. 20 - episode 7 "Backwash" Mon. Apr. 25 - episode 8 "Duck and cover" Wed. Apr. 27 - episode 9 "Stray Rounds" Mon. May 2 - episode 10 "Storm Warnings" Wed. May 4 - episode 11 "Bad Dreams" Mon. May 9 - episode 12 "Port in a Storm" ( this thread is brought to you by BorninDempsy and donincincy: a wholly owned subsidiary of B and B enterprises.  )
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(25170 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 21, 2009 7:45 PM
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i may have jumped ahead, if there are any first timers here, sorry about that
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6,554
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(25169 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 21, 2009 11:43 AM
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Hint:
I don't want to jump ahead in the storyline, but pay special attention to Agent Koutris as the season goes on. As gregstah hinted there are some surprises in store that go a long way toward explaining his behavior. I'll try to remember to point them out.
At this point in the story he seems to me to be going outside the law, but the reason why is unclear. Payoffs? A fellow Greek, maybe?
Stay tuned.
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182
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(25168 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 8:28 PM
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> from alan sepinwall of the new jersey star
> ledger....
>
>
>
> Are you sure Koutris isn't corrupt?
>
> Yup. That's straight from David Simon. Like you, I
> assumed Koutris was corrupt on some level. At the end
> of that season, I asked Simon about that, since he
> had earlier talked about how the vision of the one
> corrupt cop ruining the otherwise good criminal
> justice system was one he found reductive and wasn't
> going to use on this show. He said that Koutris
> believed The Greek was giving him real terror
> targets, and did a moral calculus wherein the
> information The Greek was feeding him would save more
> lives than would be lost by letting The Greek stay in
> business
Wow, I would never have figured that out in a million years!!
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(25167 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 5:37 PM
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> > One point in this episode has yet to be
> discussed:
> > FBI Special Agent Koutris, supposedly in
> California,
> > but in reality in Washington. How is it Agent
> > Fitzhugh could call Koutris dialing the west
> coast
> > and be connected to D.C.?
>
> Sad but true, this kind of monkey business is easily
> done, whether in government or private industry. In
> my former organization a highly paid senior executive
> was given a spacious, well-appointed corner office
> and a secretary. He never occupied it except on one
> or two day visits maybe twice a year, and seldom used
> the secretary. The office was in Irving, TX. The
> executive worked out of his home in Santa Monica, CA.
> Phone calls to the Irving number were automatically
> y routed to his home, callers believing they had
> contacted him in Irving. Nauseating.
>
> > More importantly we see Koutris talking to The
> Greek.
> > And The Greek gives up the Columbian connection
> to
> > Koutris which results in a record drug haul by
> the
> > Feds. Okay, obviously The Greek is retaliating
> when
> > the Columbians try to hold him up for more cash,
> but
> > still, an FBI agent in bed with The Greek?
>
> Koutris is slime. The Greek is the devil incarnate.
> Nothing more to be said (in my opinion).
from alan sepinwall of the new jersey star ledger....
Are you sure Koutris isn't corrupt?
Yup. That's straight from David Simon. Like you, I assumed Koutris was corrupt on some level. At the end of that season, I asked Simon about that, since he had earlier talked about how the vision of the one corrupt cop ruining the otherwise good criminal justice system was one he found reductive and wasn't going to use on this show. He said that Koutris believed The Greek was giving him real terror targets, and did a moral calculus wherein the information The Greek was feeding him would save more lives than would be lost by letting The Greek stay in business
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Posts:
468
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1/16/08
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(25166 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 12:22 PM
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> One point in this episode has yet to be discussed:
> FBI Special Agent Koutris, supposedly in California,
> but in reality in Washington. How is it Agent
> Fitzhugh could call Koutris dialing the west coast
> and be connected to D.C.?
Sad but true, this kind of monkey business is easily done, whether in government or private industry. In my former organization a highly paid senior executive was given a spacious, well-appointed corner office and a secretary. He never occupied it except on one or two day visits maybe twice a year, and seldom used the secretary. The office was in Irving, TX. The executive worked out of his home in Santa Monica, CA. Phone calls to the Irving number were automatically routed to his home, callers believing they had contacted him in Irving. Nauseating.
> More importantly we see Koutris talking to The Greek.
> And The Greek gives up the Columbian connection to
> Koutris which results in a record drug haul by the
> Feds. Okay, obviously The Greek is retaliating when
> the Columbians try to hold him up for more cash, but
> still, an FBI agent in bed with The Greek?
Koutris is slime. The Greek is the devil incarnate. Nothing more to be said (in my opinion).
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Posts:
182
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4/1/09
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(25165 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 11:53 AM
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> More thoughts on S2/E22;
>
> Once again in this episode we see Stringer Bell in
> the same room with enough raw dope to put him in jail
> for life. He simply cannot afford to do this and
> hope to stay out of prison. In this sense he is like
> Avon; he cannot bring himself to delegate.
And he could get busted if not for the incompetence of the police department.
>
> One point in this episode has yet to be discussed:
> FBI Special Agent Koutris, supposedly in California,
> but in reality in Washington. How is it Agent
> Fitzhugh could call Koutris dialing the west coast
> and be connected to D.C.?
> More importantly we see Koutris talking to The Greek.
> And The Greek gives up the Columbian connection to
> Koutris which results in a record drug haul by the
> Feds. Okay, obviously The Greek is retaliating when
> the Columbians try to hold him up for more cash, but
> still, an FBI agent in bed with The Greek? This could
> compromise everything Daniels' Special detail is
> trying to accomplish.
Yes, that scene just gave me the creeps. And I think that corruption really can go that deep. In order for all that stuff to go on, you know that top people have dirty hands.
>
> Herc to Carver: "I'm starting to think that as
> criminal investigators we're not respected." I wonder
> if creating phoney Confidential Informers like
> Fuzzy Dunlop could have anything to do with
> this?
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Posts:
6,554
Registered:
11/8/04
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(25164 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 10:33 AM
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More thoughts on S2/E22;
Once again in this episode we see Stringer Bell in the same room with enough raw dope to put him in jail for life. He simply cannot afford to do this and hope to stay out of prison. In this sense he is like Avon; he cannot bring himself to delegate.
One point in this episode has yet to be discussed: FBI Special Agent Koutris, supposedly in California, but in reality in Washington. How is it Agent Fitzhugh could call Koutris dialing the west coast and be connected to D.C.?
More importantly we see Koutris talking to The Greek. And The Greek gives up the Columbian connection to Koutris which results in a record drug haul by the Feds. Okay, obviously The Greek is retaliating when the Columbians try to hold him up for more cash, but still, an FBI agent in bed with The Greek? This could compromise everything Daniels' Special detail is trying to accomplish.
Herc to Carver: "I'm starting to think that as criminal investigators we're not respected." I wonder if creating phoney Confidential Informers like Fuzzy Dunlop could have anything to do with this?
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6,554
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(25163 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 10:17 AM
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> Frannie says:
> Well that is certainly interesting....finding a
> definition of evil that fits multiple circumstances..
> What is it??What would that be in the 21st century?
> Drugs? Money? Power?
None of the above in and of themselves. Each has been used since the dawn of time for both good and/or evil. Depends on who is using them and how they are used.
Drugs? Anesthetics are drugs, but they allow painless surgery. On the other hand they permit people to escape from and avoid reality, too.
Money? Timely donations from the wealthy permit research into society's ills in the search for cures: Cancer, for example, or better buildings for schools.
Power? Wielded intelligently, power can be used to help us realize magnificent visions. The other side of the coin gives us Bernie Madoff and Idi Aimin.
I once heard a very reasoned argument for not only legalization of all drugs, but a corollary argument for making them free from the Federal Government. I don't want to go too far afield here, since we are drifting further from analysis of The Wire, but we can discuss it via E-mail if you are so inclined.
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(25162 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 20, 2009 9:59 AM
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>>Fundamentalism in any belief system
>> has, as
> > one of it's core components, rigidity of
>> thought. It
> > fails to take into account external
>> circumstances
> > which alter our actions.
> > My take is that the commandment was conceived of
>> to
> > prohibit indiscriminate and senseless murder.
> you mean like what is happening now?
Not sure exactly what you are referring to, frannie. Do you mean the conflict in the Gulf? Or life in general at this time?
>Charles Manson
> said that what is coming will make what he did seem
> like child's play, a prophet?
Old Charlie is an ex Cincinnati boy who went to the left coast to make a name for himself. (Which he did.)
I'd hate to think of someone with rice pudding for brains as a prophet, since anyone can predict that matters will get worse just by looking at the unrestrained population growth. More people= more nut cases= more abnormal behavior.
And while I believe that a case could be made for killing as a form of self-protection, and that there are such things as just wars, I also understand that these excuses are often cited on the thinnest of grounds for pointless mayhem.
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182
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(25161 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 2:14 PM
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Don says:
Still I firmly believe that evil must be confronted and prevented from working it's way with us. The problem, I suppose, is finding a definition of evil that fits multiple circumstances.
Frannie says:
Well that is certainly interesting....finding a definition of evil that fits multiple circumstances..
What is it??What would that be in the 21st century? Drugs? Money? Power?
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182
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(25160 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 2:08 PM
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> > Killing is relative, for the most part, to the
> > person(s) and situations they are in and it's
> society
> > really that sets the tone of what is
> acceptable.
> > That is why it is very difficult to look, or I
> > I should say for me, to see the Bible or
> commandments
> > in a fundamental way.
>
> Ah tomarmas, you came through like a champ! 
>
> I agree. Fundamentalism in any belief system has, as
> one of it's core components, rigidity of thought. It
> fails to take into account external circumstances
> which alter our actions.
>
> My take is that the commandment was conceived of to
> prohibit indiscriminate and senseless murder.
you mean like what is happening now.? Charles Manson said that what is coming will make what he did seem like childs play, a phophet?
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6,554
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(25159 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 12:41 PM
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> To defend ourselves, by killing, kill
> kill kill, well, where does it stop? Apparently no
> where?
> An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind..
> Ghandi
When asked what he thought of Western Civilization Ghandi also replied :
"I think it would be a good idea." Loved that one.
Passive resistance is a powerful force. (Hey I was a young man back then. I even fell in love with Joan Baez.)
And I agree that we seem all too ready to kill as a means of solving problems, both personally and nationally. Being a big fan of Issiac Asimov I loved his quote: "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Still I firmly believe that evil must be confronted and prevented from working it's way with us. The problem, I suppose, is finding a definition of evil that fits multiple circumstances.
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Posts:
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(25158 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 12:30 PM
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> Killing is relative, for the most part, to the
> person(s) and situations they are in and it's society
> really that sets the tone of what is acceptable.
> That is why it is very difficult to look, or I
> I should say for me, to see the Bible or commandments
> in a fundamental way.
Ah tomarmas, you came through like a champ!
I agree. Fundamentalism in any belief system has, as one of it's core components, rigidity of thought. It fails to take into account external circumstances which alter our actions.
My take is that the commandment was conceived of to prohibit indiscriminate and senseless murder.
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182
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(25157 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 12:26 PM
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Well, I do have a few thoughts on some of what you said, Don. Thou shall not kill is a pretty absolute edict. But then killing is justified in War. In the words of John Lennon, (i think) "What if they gave a war and no one came." ? We all know what a mess killing created, for generations. My dad was a career military man...he was in WWI and Korea, and he was messed up, I and all my siblings....messed up! Maybe he shouldn't have killed?
When a man came and shot the Amish children (Amish are the most gentle, and spiritual people I have ever met or seen in my entire life) the press asked them what they were going to do. They all sat huddled together in their grief, and simply said "we forgive"
Vietnam....well, what a mess we deal with there, and have.. many of those men killed, and then proceeded to slowly kill themselves with drugs and alcohol.
Yes, Don, I know, black and white thinking is dangerous, there are always gray areas. And certainly the Wire points that out. Who is the bad guy, what is the bad guy.
I am ok with deep questions, I live there in my head. I guess I think there is more to life than what we have here. To defend ourselves, by killing, kill kill kill, well, where does it stop? Apparently no where?
An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind.. Ghandi
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600
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(25156 of 25170)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Nov 19, 2009 12:17 PM
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> >> gt;
> > > All this is true, but for one thing: Bodie
> >> denies to
> > > Stringer that it was a bullet from his
> crew
> >> that
> > > killed the child. In his mind he has
> >> rationalized
> > > that it was the other group that was
> >> responsible.
> > >
> > > Far harder, I would think, would be for
> Bodie
> >> to
> > > rationalize the killing of Wallace where
> there
> >> is no
> > > denying personal responsibility.
>
> > Good conversation you two, I love this. I think
> that
> > rationalization, and justification are very
> powerful
> > forces. I don't know how one learns to
> confront
> > these two forces in their lives. For me, it has
> been
> > one hellofa ride. Part of what helps me is my
> > religion, (confession) and my parents. It is
> hard
> > for me to do wrong, and not see my part,
>
> Shakespeare once said "conscience doth make cowards
> of us all." (If only it were true all the time.)
>
> > yet, I have
> > been able to do it, and watch myself squirm and
> > weasel out using those two tools, justify, and
> > rationalize. For me though, deep inside I
> always
> > know. Do we all?
>
> Ooh, frannie. here we get into a deep philosophical
> pit of debate, because it opens up the question of
> relativism vs the absolute. Put another way, are
> there absolute rules for all of us, all the time, or
> do circumstances alter cases?
>
> For example: The commandment says "Thou shalt not
> kill." That's pretty clear. Thou shalt NOT
> kill. There are no loop holes in that commandment. It
> doesn't say thou shalt not kill except. Yet
> people kill to defend themselves, or their family and
> loved ones and we exonerate them. We went to war to
> stop Hitler from killing Jews, right? And our
> soldiers had to kill. And with the blessing of the
> church.
> It would appear that the admonition against killing
> is relative rather than absolute.
>
>
> >Do we get better and better at
> > using them, and lying to ourselves, until we
> are
> > delusional?
>
> Once again, it begs the response, is your reality the
> same as mine? And, if not, are we bound by the same
> rules? What may be ingrained in you as deeply wrong
> may in another be considered a moral good.
> Another example will serve here. Flying those planes
> into the towers - for the men who did it- was a
> faith based experience. Their last words were
> "God is great." They saw no wrong in their act, even
> though we did.
>
> >... many things are not thought about as youth,
> that
> > haunt us as we get older. We can make up for
> pas sins though in many ways.
>
> I agree, indeed we can. I would only add, so long as
> we perceive them as wrong.
>
> > those are some of my thoughts on the issue
>
> Did you ever think when you came here that your
> deepest core beliefs would be brought into play all
> because of a television series? I sure didn't. But,
> as you say, it is fun to discuss, debate and
> challenge our own thoughts because it does one of two
> things: It makes our beliefs stronger, or it makes us
> question whether what we believed is relevant and
> suggests possible room for change and growth.
>
> Either way, we win.
Killing is relative, for the most part, to the person(s) and situations they are in and it's society really that sets the tone of what is acceptable. That is why it is very difficult to look, or I should say for me, to see the Bible or commandments in a fundamental way. You could say we rationalize the Bible as the Bodie's, Avon's rationalize what they do. The Thou Shalt Not Kill serves as the guideline but society really formulates (or rationalizes) how we interpret that.
Bodie getting in a shoot out with the dealers is probably seen as a form of war or if we don't get them they will get us, like self defense. To me two groups killing each other bothers me, but the killing of the young kid not involved in that mess is straight out murder and angers me the most. But according to a literal interpretation of the commandments all murders are killing, right? Killing is killing.
Reality is people don't view it that way.
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