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O.K., it's the dead of winter,everyone is strung out waiting for Albrecht to get a sign from heaven, tempers grow short, and we are all losing our focus. What's needed is a good shot of Wire watching! S1/S2 are now out on dvd, and a lot of you have taped the show so it's possible for us to watch the first 25 episodes together again, and then chat it up here. The idea is simple: Two nights a week on the schedule below, we all watch the episode, starting with S1/E1 and then discuss it that night or the next day. The balance of the week is for ongoing discussion, and will allow those with schedule conflicts to catch up. For those without video, we will post episode summaries ahead of time so you can join in. Granted, the element of speculation about upcoming shows is lost,but even there it might be fun to ponder missed opportunities and alternate plot arcs. This little journey will get us past winter, and into spring, when we all need to shed that 'Television Tan', and get outdoors. So here we go; Stringer, D'Angelo, Wallace and Sobotka are all alive again. Avon is out of jail, and the detail is yet to meet. join us for a Wire marathon! SCHEDULE The First Season Mon. Feb 14 - episode 1 "The Target" Wed. Feb 16 - episode 2 "The Detail" Mon. Feb.21 - episode 3 "The Buys" Wed. Feb.23 - episode 4 "Old Cases" Mon. Feb 28 - episode 5 "The Pager" Wed. Mar. 2 - episode 6 "The Wire" Mon. Mar. 7 - episode 7 "One Arrest" Wed. Mar. 9 - episode 8 "Lessons" Mon. Mar.14 - episode 9 "Game Day" Wed. mar.16 - episode 10 "The Cost" Mon. Mar. 21- episode 11 "The Hunt" Wed. Mar. 23- episode 12 "Cleaning up Mon. mar. 28- episode 13 "Sentencing" The Second Season Wed. Mar. 30 - episode 1 "Ebb Tide" Mon. Apr. 4 - episode 2 " Collateral Damage" Wed. Apr. 6 - episode 3 "Hot Shots" Mon. Apr. 11 - episode 4 "Hard Cases" Wed. Apr. 13 - episode 5 "Undertow" Mon. Apr. 18 - episode 6 "All Prologue" Wed. Apr. 20 - episode 7 "Backwash" Mon. Apr. 25 - episode 8 "Duck and cover" Wed. Apr. 27 - episode 9 "Stray Rounds" Mon. May 2 - episode 10 "Storm Warnings" Wed. May 4 - episode 11 "Bad Dreams" Mon. May 9 - episode 12 "Port in a Storm" ( this thread is brought to you by BorninDempsy and donincincy: a wholly owned subsidiary of B and B enterprises.  )
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(23042 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 7, 2008 5:22 PM
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>
> So come join us and post your thoughts and comments.
> Who knows? S2 might become your favorite season!
Some comments on prior S2 episodes:
Quotes from Ziggy, of all people, lead off two of the episodes - it's unusual for a character to get more than one, if that. Ziggy is more of a key character in S2 than initial viewings would suggest.
Episode 21 -"How come they don't fly away?" The birds with the clipped wings might be a metaphor for the stevedores (and other blue collar workers) who are displaced economically and don't feel that relocating will help them. They feel they have no other marketable skills and that "job training" will be for positions lesser than anything they've enjoyed in the past.
Episode 23 - "It pays to go with the union card every time." Ziggy utters this in an act of theft, theft being committed to bolster his own reputation in addition to generating an income that membership in a union long ago lost its power to assure. A flippant remark, but sad nontheless.
Episode 20 - "Don't worry kid, y'er still on the clock." If there is any such thing as a silver lining for New Charles, it's that his injuries are covered under USL&HWA, whose benefits are vastly superior to those of any state fund (except maybe for Alaska's, but that's another discussion). Economically, over the short run, he is probably in a better position than most of his co-workers.
Episode 22 - I'm suprised no one has mentioned the tragic opening scene in which the mother discovers her son has been killed in the gunfight. This to me is among the most wrenching scenes of the series. An ordinary, decent American parent, trying to raise her children in that environment, has her child precede her in death. It happens all too often, everywhere.
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(23041 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 7, 2008 12:15 PM
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Reminder:
This evening we conclude major discussion of S2/E23 and begin to take a hard look at S2/E24. Which means, in effect, that we have only TWO more episodes of Season Two to go.
I mention this only because S2 was not everyone's favorite, but becomes a lot more interesting a second or third time around when shared with fellow Wire fans.
So come join us and post your thoughts and comments. Who knows? S2 might become your favorite season!
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(23040 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 6, 2008 6:26 PM
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Two final observations on S2/E23:
Herc and Carver remain class clowns as Vondas drives away unobserved while they argue about french fries.
The text messages Vondas sends are all in Greek
which seems to lend credence to the idea that The Greek really is. (Greek, that is.)
It's been kind of quiet around here for a couple of days. Anybody else have any closing thoughts on E23?
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(23039 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 6:13 PM
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> Ziggy never really suffered the consequences of >his
> actions.
Oppps! Here I would disagree. His actions with the duck -the alcohol intake which killed it- seemed to hurt him greatly. He even took a swing at Nicky when that happened.
His misadventure with White Mike (coming up short on the package) froze him out of the drug trade.
His short changing of Cheese got him on that man's hit list and it was only fast footwork by others that kept him alive. It also got his car burned up.
True, his encounter with Maui embarrassed him but Maui, in a bad mood, would have near killed him.
I could list a few others, but suffice it to say, in this ep he really suffers some dire consequences.
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(23038 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 6:01 PM
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> I try to stay
> within the context of the show and what is being
> said. You have to infer a lot and that causes the
> lively "discussions".
Myself, I enjoy a good argument, or debate, if you will, so long as it is backed up with a fact or two to give it verisimilitude, (Now -that's a fifty point word, right there!- and doesn't get personal.
As to inference and/or speculation, well, as you point out, sometimes it becomes necessary as not everything is spelled out on this show. The truth is I kind of like that. It makes the series more realistic in my view. Life is pretty much that way. Many things we witness never get explained and we are left to wonder.
That said it seems to me at least, that we can apply a theory proposed by a 14th century English logician named Occam when it comes to inference and/or speculation. The term "Occam's Razor" means in the simplest terms that if there are multiple answers or theories to a dilemma, the simplest one is usually the best.
Now how many threads on this Forum can you run across verismiltitude and Occam's Razor in one post? Let it never be said the our thread doesn't deliver!
"Woe unto those who piss on The Marathon Thread for the wind will blow it back on them!"
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Posts:
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(23037 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 3:02 PM
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Bunny Colvin came up with 4 as well.
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Posts:
2,412
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(23036 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 2:40 PM
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exactly, when I see a 2, then another 2, you dont have to hit me upside the head with the 4
--
Your man need to reconcile himself to this here way of thinking . Prop Joe and Co-op
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197
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(23035 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 12:20 PM
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> As Bodie says, "I ain't never seen shit like this.
>
>
>
>
> And this is what I interpret writers attempting to
> convey as my previous point of best the west ever
> seen, and if Bodie can recognize it, why didnt
> Stringer anticipate it?? I certainly thought he did,
> hence taking a risk never before thought of
> True its still possible Roberto shit was this nice,
> but that aint what the show is saying
>
> --
> Your man need to reconcile himself to this here way
> of thinking . Prop Joe and Co-op
That is how I interpreted it also. I try to stay within the context of the show and what is being said. You have to infer alot and that is causes the lively "discussions".
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(23034 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 12:11 PM
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> As Bodie says, "I ain't never seen shit like this.
>
>
>
>
> And this is what I interpret writers attempting to
> convey as my previous point of best the west ever
> seen, and if Bodie can recognize it, why didnt
> Stringer anticipate it?? I certainly thought he did,
> hence taking a risk never before thought of
> True its still possible Roberto shit was this nice,
> but that aint what the show is saying
Makes some sense, but I question whether Bodie has that much insight. Bodie sold street ready stuff, so he can speak to the quality of the product on the street. I never saw Bodie involved with the cutting and processing, so I question whether he knows the quality of Roberto's product as it came in the door. It is quite possible that the purity of Joe's is the same as Roberto's, but Stringer had to put out a smoker and didn't step on Joe's stuff as hard. He had to do so to recover business and put out the word that the Towers were back in the mix. Or Joe's product could be that much better. Stringer would be the one to know, and we never heard him say or imply that Joe's product was better than Roberto.
The debate on quality is moot if, as D once said, the stuff came in street ready. In that case, there would be no comparing Roberto's cut product with Joe's raw. From Stringer's perspective, the comparison would have been based on profit. Roberto's stuff comes in at street grade purity at likely a cheaper price. It also cuts out the labor cost of cutting and vialing raw. Joe's comes in raw at a higher price but can be diluted to increase profits per unit of raw. Without knowing the prices from both sources, it's tough to make a solid call on which source was better. It's kind of like assuming the owner of the Trump Tower is making more than the owner of a lesser building. If the Trump guy overpaid, the other guy can outearn him. We do get some insight in S3 that profit went up, but it's not clear whether that was due to increased profit margin on the product sold or decreased labor cost due to decrease in real estate. Less territory, less muscle, hoppers, etc... Bodie's word just ain't enough.
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(23033 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 12:09 PM
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> > First of all let me say this, no matter how
> many
> > times I see the scene where Prez decks his
> > father-in-law Valchek, it never fails to give
> me
> > pleasure! Makes you wonder how long has he
> >wanted to
> > do that?
>
> You have a lot of company here, T. All of this points
> out what a fine acting job Al Brown does as Stan
> Valchek. David Simon admired his work so much that
> Mr. brown was put up by the show for an Emmy back in
> the S2 days. That he never got it says a lot more
> about the Emmy Awards people than about The
> Wire.
He did a helluva job in that role but he'll have be happy in the response he gets from people who watch the show because that Emmy was never coming. I think everyone on the show pretty much gave up on the Emmy's. I think they were just glad HBO continue to support them for 5 Seasons.
>
> > Although, truth be told, Prez may need
> > anger management classes seeing as this is not
> >the
> > first time he has unloaded on someone.
>
> Nor sadly, the last. We could have a long discussion
> about whether Prez should have been a police or not,
> but I'd prefer to hold off until S3 since it will add
> a lot more to the debate.
I forgot abt that, OMG. Kind of reminds me of D'Angelo. Stringer praised him on his work in the pit in Season 1, after he got demoted, but outside of collecting the revenue he was throwing off all kinds of flags that he wasn't suited for job, in the larger sense of the word, especially when it came to judgement. The same with Prez who was excellent with following the paper trail, working the numbers and Lester was his mentor. Outside of that, total liability with horrible judgement.
--
Edited by tomarmas at 09/04/2008 9:30 AM PDT
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(23032 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 11:58 AM
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> > Ziggy, Ziggy, Ziggy want can you say abt this
> guy.
> > This dude was destined for the biggest screw up
> >ever
> > r award. You hate to think what is in store for
> >him
> > in prison. He is just a tragic figure in every
> sense
> > of the word.
>
> I think our friend Briefcase nailed it when she said
> that Ziggy seemed incapable of appreciating the
> consequences of his actions. He just went with
> whatever spirit moved him at the moment.
>
> My take in this instance is that all the slights from
> family, friends and coworkers, all the years of being
> the butt of jokes finally caught up with him and poor
> Glekas just happened to be the right man in the wrong
> place. The symbolism of the parking meter popping up
> to read "time expired" was so appropriate in Ziggy's
> case. As Prissy said, "When didn't Ziggy ever do dumb
> shit?"
>
> And then, as if all that had gone down that day
> wasn't bad enough, poor Ziggy digs the hole even
> deeper by amending his statement so that instead of
> reading "He said please don't shoot me" to the
> far more damaging "He was more like begging." Jay
> Landsman, squinting through the cigarette smoke,
> couldn't believe his ears.
Ziggy never really suffered the consequences of his actions. The most he ever suffered was embarrassment. Ziggy acts on impulse without thinking abt the outcome. You wonder if he just lacks that part of the brain that does organized thinking or maybe he just missed or was spared the cause and affect lessons we all learn as a kid.
I watched that scene with Double G in the store and had that confused puppy head movement.....like what was that?! This dude murders someone and you feel sorry for HIM!
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(23031 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 11:42 AM
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> First thoughts about S2/E23:
>
> I liked the opening. the Johnny Cash line "I keep my
> eyes wide open all the time" was particularly
> appropriate. As Prez says, "Fucking A". Prez takes
> real pride in police work for the first time. A long
> way from the kid who shot up his police cruiser back
> in the day.
>
> Interesting, too is how Prez crops Frank Sobotka's
> picture to make space on the board. Frank becomes
> smaller both literally and figuratively. Nice
> symbolism there.
>
> I seem to be on a Prez bandwagon this morning, but
> notice, too how he can't wait to get at the new GPS
> tracking software.
>
> Stringer has achieved his goal at this point. The new
> high quality product is paying off. As Bodie says, "I
> ain't never seen shit like this." The fly in the
> ointment, of course, is that Stringer's goal of more
> sales and increased profits is in stark contrast to
> Avon's goal of having his name ring out on ghetto
> street corners.
> 'Business' to Avon means something quite different
> than it does to Joe, or Stringer, or even Butchie,
> for that matter. As the blind man notes in this ep,
> "When you got a steady supply you run shit like a
> business. Somebody gets hurt there's a
> reason." This will become the essence of the
> conflict as matters progress.
>
> Following the Bodie arc for another moment the
> exchange between him and Stringer makes a point:
> Bodie: "This don't make sense."
> Stringer: "You like the product we selling?"
> Bodie: "Yeah."
> Stringer: "Make sense now?"
>
> And naturally, Bodies question after brother appears,
> "What we gonna do when we run out of good product?
> That's what I be asking."
>
> I liked Cheese's line to Mouzone: "Either you a
> Muslim or your momma need to stop laying out your
> clothes." Clearly Cheese has no idea who he's dealing
> with. He soon finds out. I wonder if the term "rat
> shot" was intended symbolically as well as literally?
>
> (I need to get off this symbolism kick. Gregstah will
> skin me alive.)
>
> Bunk looking like a little kid on the boat with the
> big red life preserver.
Great points and insight. I like the Bunk comment. I love Bunk! Bunk was not playing was he?!
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(23030 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 10:09 AM
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While we're on the subject of Ziggy let me add here perhaps the most damning comment Frank Sobotka could ever hear. When Frank quizes Nicky about Ziggy's actions he says, "You (Nick) should know, you're his cousin", Nicky replies, "You're his Father!" I imagine this to be the first time Frank realizes that a son is more important than the docks.
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Posts:
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(23029 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 10:02 AM
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> As Bodie says, "I ain't never seen shit like this."
> And this is what I interpret writers attempting to
> convey as my previous point of best the west >ever
> seen, and if Bodie can recognize it, why didnt
> Stringer anticipate it?? I certainly thought he did,
> hence taking a risk never before thought of.
I agree and I think Stringer was smart enough to buy Prop Joe's argument that the stuff was 'raw' right off the boat and that, coupled with the fact that business was going elsewhere, convinced him that this was a good move.
> True its still possible Roberto shit was this nice,
> but that aint what the show is saying.
And even if Roberto's product was the equal of The Greek's, dealing with Joe eliminated the NY reup run that put D'Angelo and Avon behind bars.
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Posts:
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(23028 of 23042)
Re: Wire marathon: 25 nights together!
Sep 4, 2008 9:55 AM
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> Ziggy, Ziggy, Ziggy want can you say abt this guy.
> This dude was destined for the biggest screw up >ever
> r award. You hate to think what is in store for >him
> in prison. He is just a tragic figure in every sense
> of the word.
I think our friend Briefcase nailed it when she said that Ziggy seemed incapable of appreciating the consequences of his actions. He just went with whatever spirit moved him at the moment.
My take in this instance is that all the slights from family, friends and coworkers, all the years of being the butt of jokes finally caught up with him and poor Glekas just happened to be the right man in the wrong place. The symbolism of the parking meter popping up to read "time expired" was so appropriate in Ziggy's case. As Prissy said, "When didn't Ziggy ever do dumb shit?"
And then, as if all that had gone down that day wasn't bad enough, poor Ziggy digs the hole even deeper by amending his statement so that instead of reading "He said please don't shoot me" to the far more damaging "He was more like begging." Jay Landsman, squinting through the cigarette smoke, couldn't believe his ears.
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